Toning examples... how, why....what?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Clavdivs, Sep 27, 2020.

  1. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    My understanding is that cabinet toning is a fairly subtle, grey to brownish toning that a coin acquires over years of storage in a cabinet. The toning is caused by the wood vapors that mix in the air, making the coins darken evenly over time.

    The silver dollar is quite gaudy. I don't know if it is the photograph, but it looks artificial to me - just to bright and splotchy. Now some silver dollars did acquire multiple color toning after storage in canvas bags. Perhaps that is the case with the silver dollar, I don't know.

    All metals, except gold (pure gold, that is), oxidize over time, including this 50 reales from Segovia, 1635, which has acquired a nice grey and brown tone to both sides - a beauty - long may she reign.

    D-Camera Spain, Philip IV, 50 Reales, Segovia, Assayer R, Superior 1997, 8-30-20.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    Actually the sulphur odor diminishes with time. My experience with liver of sulphur is that it creates dark brown to black toning, depending on the concentration. Using this chemical requires a very cautious approach.
     
  4. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    Morgans are quite a bit different than most other coins and tend to have some of the most vivid examples of toning. Environment and storage methods help explain how the colors form. Many never reach the monster colors (especially if they were used in commerce). Some of the famous toned examples were kept for many years in canvas bags inside of bank vaults and treated with sulfur.

    Here is a link to a great guide on toned Morgans:
    http://www.jhonecash.com/coins/tonedmorgans.asp
     
  5. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    That rainbow toned Morgan Dollar is a quintessential example of a bag toned Morgan and is absolutely naturally toned. If you are interested in the science behind it, please refer to @Morgandude11 post above or the link below written by Jason Poe.

    What You Need to Know About: The Science of Toning


    While we are on the subject of natural vs artificial toning, all of the coins shown in this post are artificially toned with the application of sulfur and heat.
     
    Insider likes this.
  6. Ancient Aussie

    Ancient Aussie Well-Known Member

    My Hadrian Tridrachm is the weirdest toned silver I have ever seen with it's gold/copper look. AA_Tridrachm_3 (6).jpg Hadrian, Cilicia Aegaea, circa 117 AD. AR Tridrachm 9.6 gm, GIC 1218. Toned.
     
    PeteB, Johndakerftw, Bing and 3 others like this.
  7. gsimonel

    gsimonel Well-Known Member

    This is usually the case, but not always. Some patinas, especially light bluish-green patinas, can sometimes be very fragile and easily chipped off. This type of patina seems to me more common on provincial coins than imperial. I'm not sure why this is--possibly local environmental conditions, or perhaps it has something to do with the chemistry of orichalcum vs. bronze.
    Here's an example from my collection. Had this coin retained all its original patina, it would be quite a beauty. Notice that where the patina has broken off, much of the fine detail has been lost along with it:
    [​IMG]
    Marcus Aurelius
    Caesar, A.D. 139-161
    Augustus, A.D. 161-180

    Provincial Bronze (AE26)
    Moesia Inferior, Nikopolis ad Istrum, before A.D. 161
    Obv: AVPHΛIOC OVHPOC KAICAP
    Rev: NEIKOΠOΛEITΩNΠPOC IC - Serapis, standing left, holding scepter and sacrificing with patera over altar.
    Unlisted in Moushmov or RPC; unpublished?
    26mm, 11.0g.
     
  8. Steelers72

    Steelers72 Well-Known Member

    The rainbow toning comes from contact with sulfur. A lot of the canvas bank bags, Wayte Raymond holders contained sulfur. It forms a thin film appearance on the surface of the coin. The refraction of light is what our eyes perceive as color
     
    Lehigh96 likes this.
  9. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    And then, as we know, there are certain sellers who apply blue toning to their coins artificially -- a color that, on the coin I bought, disappeared all by itself in a couple of months. Thankfully, because I never liked it to begin with. See my thread on my experience at https://www.cointalk.com/threads/a-mysterious-transformation.360216/
     
  10. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    Natural old cabinet tone is especially valued by high end ancients collectors because they are a signal of old provenance, which is very important for the freedom to transfer coins across borders, donate to museums etc, and to resell for much higher prices. The tone doesn't directly indicate provenance but indicates a coin where one might reasonably expect to find a provenance within a year or so of exhaustive research. Specialists know very well the difference between natural old toning, and artificial. Natural toning in combination with decades or centuries of wear results in tiny but important variations in toning between more and less exposed areas of a coin. Sometimes one sees evidence of a coin being displayed obverse side up in a tray. So I have to disagree with those who say you can easily artificially tone a coin. You can, but not to deceive me
     
    Volodya, IanG, ominus1 and 1 other person like this.
  11. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Actually many U.S. coins have colorful "rainbow" toning. Many are naturally toned and many are not.

    Ancient coins are found toned. So far, the main colors I've seen on naturally toned silver ancients are iridescent blue and violet. I have not seen red, orange, green, or yellow. Nevertheless, silver alloys and methods of storage have changed so I'll bet these colors exist on naturally toned ancients, just rare. My beautifully toned ancient coins became toned while stored for decades in velvet lined little cases.

    EDIT: I see a coin above has traces of red. I'm thinking of much more coverage by using "not seen."

    PS I'll guarantee ancients exist with "modern applied color." Heat is one method. Add a little chemistry and...
     
    ominus1 likes this.
  12. Pishpash

    Pishpash Well-Known Member

    Cabinet toning.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Ancient fouree of Nerva
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Natural toning
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    To be fair, a more natural photo is more silver and blue and the gold is less obvious.

    You can paint on toning very cheaply with stuff available on ebay. On ancients, I am very wary of deeply toned coins, and I am a sucker for toning.
     
    Carl Wilmont, Edessa, ominus1 and 3 others like this.
  13. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    DonnaML, posted: "And then, as we know, there are certain sellers who apply blue toning to their coins artificially -- a color that, on the coin I bought, disappeared all by itself in a couple of months. Thankfully, because I never liked it to begin with. See my thread on my experience at https://www.cointalk.com/threads/a-mysterious-transformation.360216/"

    The link says you put it into a tray with a solution and that removed the color. IMHO, that does not qualify as "disappeared all by itself." ;)
     
  14. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    If you read what I actually said, and look at the actual photos I posted, you'll see that about 98% of the blue color did "disappear all by itself" before I put it in the solution to try to get rid of the little that remained. If you're going to nitpick with people, at least try to do so when it's justified.
     
    ominus1 and hotwheelsearl like this.
  15. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    Interesting coin.

    Patina is basically a chemical alteration of a coin's surface. With bronze the oxidation process alters the copper into an oxide, usually malachite, but also cuprite and in rare instances azurite. This is process gives us the greens, browns, blues and combinations thereof.

    So, the removal or loss of patina, such as with your coin, does result in the loss of detail in areas because some of the coin is gone. That's why it is a challenge to clean a coin in a manner that does not irreparably damage it.
     
  16. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    There's some nice looking silvered AEs in this thread.

    It often did. Not so much from the ones you may have seen when you were young- those had circulated. But some of the ones which were stored in cloth bags in vaults for generations did acquire some interesting toning, as @Carausius mentioned. They are very popular with collectors. That doesn't mean there aren't artificially toned ones out there, too (including a few in this thread), but many colorfully toned Morgan dollars are indeed natural. I believe the one in the OP is natural, though the colors in the photo may have been enhanced. It exhibits traces of "textile toning" patterns common to the coins long stored in bags.

    Like many collectors, I am a fan of attractive and/or colorful toning, on ancients and otherwise.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Edessa, Carl Wilmont, Limes and 11 others like this.
  17. Suarez

    Suarez Well-Known Member

    There's two types of toning. Accretions which (potentially attractively) obscure the coin's surface and that which forms from a chemical reaction with the coin's metal. Most ancients that have any toning will have a combination.

    That rainbow toning is a subset and can happen in both cases. You could apply a thin coating of a translucent material or, for a bigger challenge, you can induce oxidation. The color shifting is determined by the thickness of the layer. Depending on what the layer is made of it reflects or absorbs all light except for a very narrow range of the visual spectrum. However, it's not just the thickness. You also need an underlying layer that is reflective. This is why it's much more commonly seen in silver than in copper since ancient copper will have non-reflective patinas in pretty much every case unless stripped. It also explains why you don't see it naturally in gold since this metal does not oxidize.

    Rasiel
     
  18. Nemo

    Nemo Well-Known Member

    Oh what a difference two years can make.

    September 2018:
    Titus Eagle.jpg

    September 2020:
    Titus Left Eagle.jpg
     
  19. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Nemo likes this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page