Featured Two New Roman Provincials: Impulse Purchases

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by DonnaML, Mar 24, 2021.

  1. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    Thanks. Those are nice coins, and I think new photos would definitely show them off better. And thanks for the link. I figured that there must have been a thread about "beefy clubs" here somewhere, knowing some of you as I do! I think mine takes the cake. Speaking in mixed metaphors.
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  3. Alwin

    Alwin Supporter! Supporter

  4. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    I found a link to CNG's 2015 press release about what they dubbed the "Hermanubis Collection":


    The E-Sylum: Volume 18, Number 27, July 5, 2015, Article 11


    Kerry Wetterstrom of Classical Numismatic Group forwarded this press release for a specialized, but important collection the firm is beginning to sell in their current online auction sale. Thanks. -Editor

    Classical Numismatic Group of Lancaster, Pennsylvania and London, England is pleased to present the Hermanubis Collection of Roman Egyptian Coinage, the first part of which is in the firm’s current online auction 355, closing on July 15, 2015. Further selections from the Hermanubis Collection will be offered in both future CNG electronic and printed catalogues.

    The Hermanubis Collection was assembled with a focus on both quality and rarity. It is expected that this collection will help create a new generation of collectors for the specialized, but popular area of Alexandrian/Roman Egyptian coinage. In CNG E-Sale 355, a group of 72 Billon and Potin tetradrachms is offered from the reigns of Nero through Philip I. Just a few of the highlights are featured below.

    The ones they show certainly all have a similar tone to mine. Personally, I'm fine with it. I think it looks nice, although I do wonder how it was achieved. And I do realize that there's at least one member here who's expressed a pronounced dislike for the look. But that's OK.
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2021
  5. Iepto

    Iepto Active Member

    Funny, I also recently impulse bought a Hadrian didrachm.
    PXL_20210324_223932621.jpg PXL_20210324_223940409.jpg
    singig, Marsyas Mike, Bing and 4 others like this.
  6. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    Nice! Is that Mt. Argaeus on the reverse, with Helios on the summit? Is it also from Caesarea, then?
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  7. Iepto

    Iepto Active Member

    Yep! Same mint!
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  8. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander Blame my mother. Supporter

    I like it too - though I wouldn't want to have more than one or two of them. @TIF says it's the result of treatment by a particular UK conservator: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/gods-of-egypt.340178/#post-3556418

    (Note that CNG's photos, which reduce colour contrasts, exaggerate their uniformity somewhat.)

    I benefited from Doug's dislike of the retoning/repatination :D - he traded this Sev Alex tet to me, which I like very much:
    SA Rome tet from doug.jpg
    Either it or more likely the dies were produced at the Rome mint.
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2021
  9. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Nice coins, Donna. I'm not seeing a die match, the reverse is close, but it seems a bit off. Same celator, perhaps?

    That Hadrian Cappadocia didrachm reminded me of one I got last year, one emperor earlier but same reverse:

    Trajan - Cappadocia didrachm lot May 2020 (0).jpg
    Trajan Didrachm
    Caesarea, Cappadocia
    (c. 112-117 A.D.)

    [ΑΥΤ]ΟΚΡ ΚΑΙϹ ΝΕΡ ΤΡΑΙΑΝΟϹ ϹΕΒ ΓΕΡΜ ΔΑΚ laureate, draped & cuirassed bust right, from front / ΔΗΜΑΡΧ[ΕΞ Υ]ΠΑΤΟ Ϛ, Hercules' club.
    RPC 3000A
    (6.44 grams / 22 x 18 mm)
    singig, Andres2, Johndakerftw and 5 others like this.
  10. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Supporter! Supporter

    Lovely coins, @DonnaML! I can see why you made these impulse purchases. They were ...

    The last provincial coin I purchased on impulse was this chicken snack!


    What's not to like? It's from Antioch in Pisidia, it's an Antonine, and most of all, it's got a chicken!

    Roman provincial Æ 13 mm, 1.2 g.
    Antioch, Pisidia, time of Antoninus Pius, AD 138-161.
    Obv: ANTIOCH, draped bust of Mercury/Hermes (head assimilated to portrait of Marcus Aurelius as Caesar), left; to right, caduceus.
    Rev: COLONI, chicken walking right.
    Refs: RPC IV.3, 7350 (temporary); BMC 19.176,1 (pl. XXXI, 1); SNG von Aulock 4916; Krzyżanowska 140–1, VII.7–9; cf. SNG BN 1067.
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  11. JPD3

    JPD3 Well-Known Member

    Read your post and it made me curious to learn a bit about Trajan. Although I studied ancient history in a younger lifetime, his name as one of Emperors, slipped my mind. According to Trajan's Column Versus Numismatic Programme, authored by Cristian Gazdac, "Even for the Romans, the reign of Trajan is known among the most famous ones: ”…, melior Traiano” ([be] better than Trajan). Although he did not outright say that there are "representations of power on Trajan's provincial coins", he did say that they were "designed to ‘tell the world’ about this glorious victory of Trajan upon the brave Dacians who, according to Pliny the Younger, never been subdued before."
    Another study I perused devoted a portion of a chapter to Trajan as the 'Debellator' (Corey J. Ellithorpe: Circulating Imperial Ideology: Coins as Propaganda in the Roman World, Chapter 4, pp 122-141). As a synonym for conqueror, that word definitely conveys power.
    And I actually found information about Trajan here on Coin Talk as well. It seems we had a post back in 2018 about him: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/trajan-the-best-emperor-and-the-mystery-of-the-river-god.318843/
    Anyway, thanks for awaking my curiosity and allowing my brain cells to fire up a search about representations of Trajan, powerful and otherwise.
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  12. Cinco71

    Cinco71 Active Member

    It's somewhat comforting to know that others let coins sit on their watch lists for months. I've got a few that at this point it would feel like a relationship breaking up if I deleted them off my lists. Sometimes I just stare at them wondering if I'm ever going to pull the trigger. Luckily I don't do that with a glass of wine or two under my belt or else I'd be coin richer, bank account poorer.
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  13. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana Supporter

    Great additions to the collection! I wasn't a fan of the look of these Hermanubis Collection coins when they first being sold, but ended up acquiring a few of them anyway. I don't have any trouble enjoying the coins for what they are, but do still wonder what they originally looked like before they were subject to conservation.

    Severus Alexander - Tetradrachm ex Hermanubis Tyche 2598.jpg SEVERUS ALEXANDER
    Potin Tetradrachm. 14.14g, 23.2mm. EGYPT, Alexandria, RY 2 (AD 222/223). RPC Online Temp #10249 (34 spec); Emmett 3139.2; Dattari (Savio) 4373. O: Laureate, draped, and cuirassed bust right. R: Tyche standing facing, head left, holding rudder and cornucopia; L B (date) to upper left.
    Ex Hermanubis Collection

    I love the fat club on the Hadrian didrachm. The one on mine has a lumpier design.

    Nerva - x6 Didrachm Cappadocia Club 2591.jpg
    AR Didrachm. 6.69g, 22.1mm. Metcalf 33; Sydenham 146. CAPPADOCIA, Caesaraea-Eusebia, AD 97 (3rd Consulship). O: AYTOKPAT NЄPOYAC KAICAP CЄBACTOC, laureate head right. R: YΠATOY TPITOY, Club placed vertically downwards.
    Ex stevex6 Collection
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  14. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    I finally found the article I was thinking of: it's by someone called Oliver Hekster from Radboud University Nijmegen, and is entitled "Propagating power: Hercules as an example for second-century emperors." You can download a pdf copy at https://www.academia.edu/2129770/Pr...les_as_an_example_for_second_century_emperors. It deals with statuary, coins, etc., and focuses primarily on Trajan, Hadrian, and, of course, Commodus.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2021
  15. Ryan McVay

    Ryan McVay Supporter! Supporter

    I'd say it would be hard to disprove a die match. This can be done fairly easily in PopwerPoint. Drop you first image into your slide then the second image. For the second image get the approx scales correct. Then make the second image about 50% transparent. This allows you to see through and then rotate and scale to line up 3 points. Bamb...there you go. The legend is a bit off because the scale and rotation is slightly off but the knobs on the club and the scale is correct and overlay nicely. Rev Die Match.PNG
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  16. Ryan McVay

    Ryan McVay Supporter! Supporter

    Nice example...You might want to look at the Men with an ^ of the e. You will find the rooster/cock associated with him quite a bit.
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  17. Mammothtooth

    Mammothtooth Stand up Philosopher, Vodka Taster

    Very nice Donna
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  18. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    Thank you very much. Just to be clear, your conclusion is that in fact there is a reverse die-match to the other coin?
  19. Ryan McVay

    Ryan McVay Supporter! Supporter

    I would say yes it is a match. You can't duplicate a club and
    While I agree that there is a definitive difference in the spacing between the club and lettering on the reverse die that cannot be the judge of whether the reverses are die-matches. THere are two things I found when I attempt to layout precise geometry on these two coins. 1)
    While agree there is a difference in the spacing between the club handle and the lettering as shown I think that might be explainable. I think maybe that part of the die was repaired or retooled. I say this because you can't actually compare these two coins just from that single element. I compared the spacing and location of the nubs from the base tip of the club. They are identical. The base shows the same depth marks too. Next, the lettering spacing is spot on. Even the distance between the A and T. It's the club handle that is larger and slightly wider- remember this is engraved in the die- so you have to remove material to make it larger and longer!

    The legend lettering is absolutely identical. The border dots align as well..but that may be a bit subjective because you are at an angle and the die is slightly worn. But these, to me appear spot on..dot per dot around the rim.

    OK, why some slight differences in the rest of the elements. Here's my hypothesis. Besides the repair to the club in the die, you have different strike angles.

    I noticed that there is actually a die angle difference between the two coins. One is much more off of a 90 angle to the plane of the flan than the other. See image.

    So we have a slightly modified die between the two but I think they are the same die- just a bit different. This might also be caused by the author of the images slightly scaling one of the images and it "warps" it out of round. That's an option too. Die Match.PNG

    The portraits while almost identical- and to be honest, I don't know how they could have done this- do have the differences. The main difference is the top of the heads. But I will say, the nose angle, the triangle between the tip of the chin to the center of the ear to the center of the eye are spot on. The garland ties are spot on. The neck is spot on. The CTOC is spot on. FYI, I also had to adjust the horizontal factor a bit to get the circular beading to match. Once you do that the image will adjust slightly. The image below shows both coins stacked the top has one die 40% and the bottom reverses the image stack and the bottom image, which is now on top is set to 40% transparent. I wish I could show you how sliding the transparency scale around really shows how identical these are. Die Match2.PNG
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  20. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    Wow! Incredibly impressive work.
  21. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    PS to @Ryan McVay: many thanks for this persuasive demonstration. It does confirm my initial instinctive impression, immediately upon seeing the second coin as one of the examples on rpc, that the two were the same or almost the same. If the die was, in fact, worked on at some point in between the striking of the two coins, it certainly wouldn't be the first example I've seen of two coins that match each other except for one or more small die alterations. An alteration of a single die makes a lot more practical sense than the idea that even the same engraver could produce two virtually identical dies on two entirely separate, independent occasions. I don't see how that would be possible.
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