Security Against Gold & Silver Counterfeit Coins

Discussion in 'Bullion Investing' started by Good Cents, Jan 17, 2019.

  1. Good Cents

    Good Cents Active Member

    As I've said in another thread, I'm new to bullion and have lots of questions. I've been reading a lot for the past few months and have invested some money as well, with an interest in investing a lot more.

    My goals in obtaining bullion are for both passing gold and silver down to family one day down the line, as well as a form of keeping something tangible (other than cash) on hand to ease my lifelong dread of a scenario where life as we know it would fall apart, all heck would break loose, the electronic plug is pulled and cannot be retrieved for a long time, if ever, and the whole country (USA) is living as we did 200 years ago. No, I'm not a "Prepper", but my fears run deep (all my grandparents survived wartime scenarios where they escaped with their lives and anything they could carry, so, I suppose it made its impression...). Whether or not some awful scenario happens in my lifetime, it helps me to sleep at night to know that I have some currency on hand to buy life's necessities and survive.

    My first question is about security and avoiding counterfeiting. Although I only buy from reputable sellers like APMEX, JM Bullion, etc, I see that counterfeiting has gotten better and better over the years.

    Canadian Gold Maple Leafs seem to be ahead of this game by having radial lines and a microscopic privy.

    Here are my questions:

    1 - Can anyone other than a dealer with expensive Canadian equipment confirm the microscopic privy on the Canadian Gold Maple Leaf?

    2 - If not, then can a layman rely on that as a security measure when buying Canadian Gold Maple Leafs from a non-dealer?

    3 - Are there any other gold bullion products that provide the Canadian-Gold-Maple-Leaf level of security from counterfeiting (which seems to only be getting better and better at their nefarious end-product as time goes on)?

    4 - This question maybe should be a separate thread, but, in a scenario when all heck breaks loose in the world we live in: (a) how do you imagine being able to buy goods and services if the dollar or other fiat currency is not being used, and (b) how do you imagine most people being able to tell a counterfeit piece of gold or silver from a real one?
     
    myownprivy likes this.
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  3. rte

    rte Well-Known Member

    #1 Basic mechanical tools (ie loupe ,scale, caliper, metal verification machine,etc) Use what the dealers are using.
    #2 Refer to #1
    #3 Again verify what you buy (checks and balances) preferably in hand before you buy. #4 Everyone should be prepping to a degree.
     
    longarm likes this.
  4. Good Cents

    Good Cents Active Member

    Thanks!
     
  5. Michael K

    Michael K Well-Known Member

    If life as we know it falls apart, you wouldn't be able to trade gold for food anyway.
    As food and water would be far more precious than a useless metal.
    Perhaps at first through the black market that would be possible, as a new government was forming through some coup. But in a disaster situation,
    we are all going to die no matter how much gold we have.
     
    LA_Geezer and Clawcoins like this.
  6. Good Cents

    Good Cents Active Member

    Hmmm. Not too hopeful.

    I suppose my thoughts on this are that in a disaster situation which is not THE most extreme, if our part of the world would be falling apart, there would still be parts of the world where gold would be a valuable currency and could get my family to a better location. The world will still have to use something as a recognizable currency. Silver seems too heavy for that, so, gold seems a better choice.
     
  7. Clawcoins

    Clawcoins Well-Known Member

    yeah, but ... getting to another part of the world would require: (a) rowboat, (b) steam/coal powered ocean liner, (c) airplane, or (d) walking.

    people will still be able to QUICKLY make electricity, even for their own usage, create steam power fairly fast to automate/manufacture even without any outside equipment movement into the area. 200 years ago airplanes (or fast transport) didn't exist. I can have something flown from Japan to me in one day now. Whether a stack of gold, or a minting press and subsequent electric wood burning steam generator to power it.

    The disaster people are planning for .. well, you'd be dead anyways as mentioned.

    My disaster bag, my old military backpack .. I would not carry heavy metals .. what about fractional metals? I have transport, location, living (shelter, hunting, water) equipment in there. The US Dollar would be more recognizable for trade for food, ammo, water, fuel. The last regional disasters (whether hurricanes, or the 2003 Northeast blackout) or good examples of this.

    With gold/silver, think of it. Would you trade a 1oz gold coin for a load of bread when $20, $50 or even $100 would have sufficed? Or just use your weapon to take it ... If such a disaster, I think ppl would hoard their food and water as it's not easily replaceable not matter how much money you have. Unless you have the stuff to clean/make it yourself which is far more important. Thus the reason preppers have buckets full of dry foods.

    I prefer the ideology of " passing gold and silver down to family one day down the line"

    But @myownprivy knows a lot about the Canadian DNA stuff.
     
    myownprivy likes this.
  8. myownprivy

    myownprivy Well-Known Member

    Here's what I do personally:
    All of my full ounce gold purchases are Maple Leafs (in the years that are 9999, have privy marks, and radial lines) because I would perpetually poop my pants if I got ripped off on a $1300 purchase. I want to be 100% confident it is real and that my future buyer will know it is real too. So, I buy only Gold Maples for 1 oz gold.

    However, I still really enjoy collecting and having a variety of gold, so I also purchase a variety of other gold in small, fractional size when I can do so for no more than 5% or so over spot. I am much less concerned about my $130 fractional piece being counterfeited. 1) it's hardly worth counterfeiters' efforts to rip off something of such little value, 2) by basic measurements and appearance one can tell with high confidence if it is real and 3) if I make a mistake a buy a counterfeit 1/10th oz gold piece, I'll be upset for only a few months. I'll get over it. It won't hurt me financially.
     
  9. Michael K

    Michael K Well-Known Member

    People don't realize how short supplies we actually have.
    2 or 3 days without water and you would trade your child for a glass of water.
    You could go a little longer without food, but basically the same thing.
    If a real disaster were to happen (nuclear blast etc.), the preppers who live through it are only going to last a few weeks longer than the rest of us.
     
    Good Cents and SilverSurfer415 like this.
  10. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Ahem.

    [​IMG]
     
    hotwheelsearl likes this.
  11. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    Education is the key ? learn before you buy :)
     
  12. Good Cents

    Good Cents Active Member

    Sorry for the late reply. I'm in the middle of a deadline at work and didn't have time to check in on personal stuff during the day, skipped lunch, worked late, etc.

    I hear what you're saying and you make a lot of good points.

    There are so many scenarios of disaster that it's hard to know how to prep for them all. I'm on the East Coast and lived through 9/11, the 2003 East Coast Blackout you referred to and Hurricane Sandy in 2012. Disturbing and terrible as they each were, those scenarios were not what I am concerned about. But you're probably right and my thinking in this area is flawed. I suppose I am projecting a scenario my grandparents went through during WW2 where my grandmother sewed her gold jewelry into her clothing in a way that hid each piece, and she and my grandfather used it to bribe their way over borders they would otherwise be prohibited from crossing. They were thus able to escape the war torn area they were from and hunkered down in an unaffected location for the remainder of the war. They survived, while all their relatives who stayed behind died. The chances of that exact scenario happening to me or my family are pretty close to nil though. I suppose I hold onto this idea that having the gold could possibly save my life, as it did for my grandparents. Some things are emotional and not logical.

    But you are right that my main focus should be on passing the gold down to family down the line. And I am certainly trying to do that which is why I'm concerned about the condition of it, storing it, etc. Because as much as I fear disaster, I'm truly hoping to avoid it altogether!
     
  13. Good Cents

    Good Cents Active Member

    That makes a lot of sense, which is why I was leaning exclusively towards Maple Leafs for 1 oz pieces in the future and was thinking that I wouldn't even bother with the Gold Eagles going forward. (I don't like the idea of the gold buffalos. I find it disturbing that in building our country we destroyed almost an entire population of a people as well as an animal, and now that they're both gone we "honor" (our destruction of) them by putting their images on both sides of one of the most valuable coins our government produces. It just leaves me with a bad taste and I was not able to bring myself to buy a gold buffalo even when they were on sale. No judgment on those who buy or own them, I just really dislike the idea of them.)

    I'm curious though about the Maple Leaf privy marks. My understanding is that the current small maple leaf privy mark with the year number inside the mini-leaf is the microscopic privy mark that can be verified with a certain machine that dealers own. But I see that Canada makes other Maple Leafs with animal privy marks on them which cost more. I assumed those were simply numismatically desirable and have nothing to do with the security of the coins. Is that correct? If not, what am I missing?
     
  14. Good Cents

    Good Cents Active Member

    You're probably right :/
     
  15. Good Cents

    Good Cents Active Member

    I've been doing that for months and I'm still learning! :)
     
  16. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    A never ending process..LOL
     
  17. myownprivy

    myownprivy Well-Known Member

    Yes, the privy Maple Leafs (silver) that feature things like lunar animals, WWII items, Canadian Wildlife, etc. are not part of the DNA program. They are there only for numismatic purposes in what some collectors call "seminumismatic" That means a coin that is really only silver bullion, but it also is extra pretty (reverse proof, proof, extra design: like a privy) that gives it some extra value over spot.
     
  18. myownprivy

    myownprivy Well-Known Member

  19. Good Cents

    Good Cents Active Member

    Okay. Thank you very much! I just read everything at that link and that was SO helpful. I appreciate all your help and advice. Thank you again.

    Btw, I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot and that I didn't realize you were being sarcastic. I hope we can put that behind us.
     
    myownprivy likes this.
  20. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I think the OP has a valid point. People who expect a WWIII apocalypse of course should hoard food and weapons. However, I do believe having portable wealth is a valid idea. Most of the time in world history there has been better places to be at times than where you are, (sneaking out of Nazi Germany, communist China or Russia, etc), and those with things like gold and diamonds were able to. Those without portable wealth were stuck in place.

    Therefore, I agree with his desire to have some, "my country just went to hell but country X is doing great" assets in his back pocket. I consider it a mature thing to do personally. History is on his side.
     
  21. Good Cents

    Good Cents Active Member

    Thank you for the vote Medoraman.

    That being said, I'm not sure what the best "portable wealth" is. Diamonds seem way out of my league and I wouldn't even know where to start learning about them. What is most "barter-able" in times of major upheaval when you need to get-out-of-the-country-quick - gold coins, gold jewelry, unset diamonds, diamond jewelry, other precious metals? Lots of possibilities and I just don't know. I'm sticking to gold bullion for now because I think I get the best bang for my buck with it.

    But back to my original question - what is the best of all the gold coins out there for this purpose? The South African Krugerrand may be the most recognizable around the world, but I'm also concerned about the most secure and least able to be counterfeited. If everyone out there knows that X coin has countless counterfeits out there, why would anyone accept it as payment in a time of upheaval when people are on the run? I would guess that only the most secure coin with the best anti-counterfeiting measures would be acceptable in such circumstances. The Canada Maple Leaf seems to me like it would be the best bet against counterfeiting as of this time.

    I wonder why other countries haven't come up with their own anti-counterfeiting measures for their gold bullion yet. Canada is really on the ball in this area. They saw a problem. They fixed it. Wouldn't it be nice if the rest of the world could function so efficiently?!
     
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