[Poll-27] #14 iamtiberius vs #27 Severus Alexander (Round 3) CIT 2018

ARE YOU READY? I'M SO EXCITED!!!

Hello everyone and welcome to Round 3 of the 2018 CoinTalk Imperator Tournament! If you are unaware of the tournament I invite you to get caught up with all the fun in the master thread;

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/an...annual-coin-imperator-tournament-2018.320328/



The winner of this match will be moving on to the semifinals! A big thank you to all of our participants. Without further ado…

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#14 @iamtiberius


KINGS of LYDIA. Croesus. Circa 564/53-550/39 BC. AR Half Stater – Siglos (16mm, 5.37 g). Sardes mint. Confronted foreparts of lion and bull. Radial countermark / Two incuse squares.

Price: $212

Why it’s Cool:
The Coin:
The obverse is evenly warn with good metal. The radial countermark is placed in an inconspicuous area that does not detract from the scene. The reverse incuse marks run very deep for the type; so unsurprisingly, still hold their original striations and flow lines received at mint. It is my oldest coin by about 50 years and a recent favorite.

Numismatic Interest:
This coin and the other associated denominations are very likely the first pure silver coins in history. The Lydian king Croesus (or possibly his father Alyattes) was the first person to issue coins of pure gold and silver. When Herodotus said that the Lydian’s “were the first men whom we know who coined and used gold and silver currency” he was referencing this very coin. Previous to this development coins were struck from electrum on the standards of Ionia, Lydia, Ephesos, and Mysia. This use of separate metals, as compared to the sporadic conglomerate of gold and silver we call electrum, created a stronger monetary standard which was more easily controlled and represented the world’s first bi-metallic economic system.

Bargain:
See Vcoins here and CNG here for comparison.

The History:
Much of Croesus' rule/life lies in mystery or contradiction. Most of the info we have comes from the "Father of History," Herodotus. One should always keep in mind that modern historical research and archaeology has shown that a lot of Herodotus' information can be contradictory or unsubstantiated. However, we can't really blame someone who set the standards for proper historiographical practices, in an age when Historiography was in its infancy, for getting some information wrong. At the same time, it still amazes me that so much conjecture, contradiction, and apparently philosophical parables could exist in an official historical record about such a renowned person when the recorded events only occurred 100 years prior to record.

Croesus' rule began circa 560 BC. He initially inherited the Kingdom of Lydia from his father, but over time he eventually spread his authority over most of the western Anatolian Peninsula. His drive for expansion would lead him into conflict with the emerging Persian Empire. His great foe in this conflict, Cyrus the Great, had conquered the Medes, whose empire lay abreast of Lydia on the eastern bank of the river Halys. Croesus and Cyrus fought the Battle of Pteria beyond the Halys River, but the outcome was indecisive and Croesus returned to Sardes with his army. He figured Cyrus would not follow due to exposing a section of his army and the fast approaching winter. He was wrong. When writing a letter to the Spartans asking for aid, Cyrus' army appeared outside of Sardes. The Battle of Thymbra ensued; Croesus was defeated, arrested, and Sardes besieged.


Croesus on pyre. From an Attic Red Figure Amphora, c. 500–490 BCE. Currently in The Louvre

The death of Croesus is a section of his life that lies in contradiction. According to several historians, he was set a top of a funeral pyre to be burnt alive at Cyrus' command. He was either rescued by Apollo and pulled into heaven, rescued by Cyrus after he changed his mind, consumed by the fire and died, or ordered to be rescued by Cyrus only to have Apollo send a sudden storm to extinguish the fire; after which, Croesus lived as an adviser to Cyrus. In any event, Croesus is one of those historical characters whose life lies on the edge of actuality and legend.

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#27 @Severus Alexander


Magnesia ad Maeandrum under Themistocles, 465-459 BCE
AR hemiobol, 0.35g 7.5mm
Obv: Barley grain with Θ to left, E to right
Rev: Male head right (Apollo?), (flanked by M A?)
Reference: Nollé and Wenninger Th 5c

Price: $27

Why it's cool:
Here’s the guy who issued my coin:


So what did Themistocles do to deserve a starring role in 300: Rise of an Empire* and even get his own action figure? (See fig. 1.) According to Plutarch, he was no less than “the man most instrumental in achieving the salvation of Greece.”

After fighting in the famous Battle of Marathon and establishing himself as the leading politician in Athens, Themistocles wielded his populist political base (and Athens’ newly opened silver mines) to single-handedly build the Athenian navy. The stage was set for a showdown with the might of Persia, and the Great King Xerxes launched a massive invasion at the end of the 5th century BCE. After a defeat on land (Thermopylae, “the 300 Spartans”), a defeat at sea (Artemesium), and a tearful abandonment of the north and Athens, in September 480 BCE the Greeks were heavily outnumbered and in desperate straits… namely the Straits of Salamis, where Themistocles was in command of the allied fleet. To make matters even worse, the fractious Greeks were quarrelling and it looked as though some would flee, sealing the doom of Hellas. Was this the end of Greek freedom?

Themistocles’ fateful act was to send a secret message to Xerxes, posing as a traitor and advising the Persians to attack the disorganized allied navy. Xerxes jumped at the chance, and the result was disastrous… for the Persians. Instead of falling apart, the Greeks rallied under Themistocles’ skillful command, and the narrow straits both nullified the Persians’ numerical advantage and effectively trapped them (see fig. 2). The Greeks decimated the Persian fleet, forcing Xerxes to withdraw much of his army from Greece because he no longer had the ships to supply it. A Greek land victory followed at Plataea, and finally the Persian threat was no more! In time, the great navy that Themistocles had built would become the basis for the Athenian Empire, and so transform Greek history yet again.



So Themistocles was a hero, right? In retrospect, it’s actually not clear. Soon he would betray the trust of the Spartans regarding the building of Athens’ land walls, and the Athenians themselves would grow tired of his arrogance and no doubt jealous of his enormous wealth and power. The Athenian assembly ostracized (expelled by vote) their former darling around 471 (fig. 3), converting this to a death sentence when the aggrieved Spartans provided evidence that Themistocles was conspiring with <gasp>… the Persian King!

So what did Themistocles do? The story is he fled to Persia and proceeded to ingratiate himself with Xerxes’ son Artaxerxes, who made him a governor, headquartered at Magnesia ad Maeandrum on the west coast of Anatolia (Turkey)... as corroborated by his coins. The man who, according to Plutarch, had once executed a Greek for using Persian money was now minting it himself! (To the gratification of us coin collectors. ) Themistocles died a few years later in 465, an honoured Persian citizen, and passed on the governorship to his son.

Was Themistocles’ message to Xerxes at Salamis really a ploy aimed at saving the Greeks, or was it a clever way to play both sides? After all, if Xerxes had triumphed there, Themistocles would have been a hero to the Persians! It is certainly odd that the alleged nemesis of the Persians would, a mere decade later, be given a Persian governorship. Unlike Thucydides and Aeschylus, Herodotus takes the dim view. Likely we’ll never know, but this coin is a fascinating illustration of Themistocles’ ambiguity.

Numismatically the coin has additional interest as a rare use of the Attic weight standard in Asia Minor (not surprising given Themistocles’ origins). In addition, the appearance of a name or monogram seldom occurs on coinage before 450, in fact there are only four other Greek examples. Perhaps the Athenians’ complaints of arrogance had some justification!

Value for money:
It’s unfortunate that the coins of this great historical figure are so rare. I was stunned to see this example tucked away in an auction with an absurdly low opening bid. Clearly the seller didn’t realize its importance! To my great good fortune, nobody else realized it either and it was mine at the start price, probably the best bargain I’ve ever had. The next most inexpensive example of this general type on acsearch, with a worse reverse and a marginally better obverse, was sold by CNG for $425 in 2012 (see fig. 4), and only a handful have ever come on the market.

Eye appeal:
OK, I admit this one is unlikely to win the beauty contest , although the portrait of Apollo is quite charming. Bear in mind the coin is only 7.5mm in diameter, so in hand it appears quite well defined and the corrosion is barely noticeable. For those of you using a computer screen, the smaller image in fig. 5 may help you envision that.

If you're still undecided at this point, ask yourself: does my competitor's coin come with its own action figure? No? I thought not.



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* Not recommended for historical accuracy. For example, Xerxes transforms himself into a 9-foot demigod by taking a bath.

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A Gentle Reminder
The first two rounds went about as well as anyone could have hoped from the perspective of keeping the commentary fun, interesting and friendly. It would be a challenge to run a tournament of this type on almost any other board but with the great people here on CT it has been both an honor and a pleasure. Lets try to keep up with the perfect score in the friendliness department by concentrating comments on why you liked an entry instead of why you didn't like the other.

Remember that everyone gets 3 votes to choose which coin you think comes out on top in each of the three categories. With that I will open the thread for comments, opinions, coin pile-ons and random posting of coin things as you see fit.

 

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Give it up for Team America! Go @iamtiberius

 

*googles "Croesus action figure"

 

Just figured out that I didn't have to cast the third vote if I didn't want tooo! Two very equal coins in my opinion.

 

Me in my best grizzled ol Mick voice, "you're doing good kid. SA admitted defeat in the looks category. But he's trying to come on strong with the action figure to get us historically. Forget about it. You got Suzy Q in your right hand...the OLDEST freakin silver coin known to man! Stay on the outside and when he makes his move get him to the corner and BOOM!
In all seriousness, super jealous of both you. Amazing finds for these prices with MASSIVE historical value. 2 more additions for my must have list...though will probably never get (not for these prices anyway). Another awesome pairing!

 

Geesh... a solid example of a common but indisputable icon vs. a rare under-the-radar historical gem. I'm just glad I'm not in a dust-up against either of these guys.

I think the siglos was scored for a very nice price, but the ridiculous pittance paid for that Themistokles hemiobol, literally a tiny fraction of what it ought to have sold for,
just floors me.

The interest category may be a little harder to weigh, IMHO. The siglos is the sort of seminal type I think deserves to be in every collector of ancients' coin pile, but I think the historical coolness of a coin issued by Themistokles can't be overstated. Rarity in and of itself may not be all that important, but in this case, it gave the edge to the Themistokles hemiobol in the Interest category for me.

Both great coins and ones that are high on my want list!

 

So now we know what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object...

An explosion of awesomeness!


Seriously though this is great stuff. The first silver coin in history versus a coin struck under one of the most important figures in western history.

Both got great deals! The price paid for that Themistocles is downright comically ridiculous. What a score SA!

This match will be close and it will hinge on the numismatic and historical interest component.

Thanks in advance to both players for putting so much effort and sharing so much interesting information over the course of the tournament. Both of you deserve to win!

 

Oh man, can I borrow someone else's nails to bite? Mine are gone already. Currently a precise tie...

Perhaps I was too quick to do so... do check out fig. 5.

Fantastic landmark coin, iamt, and a great price too! I especially like the flow lines on the incuses that you pointed out. I've rarely seen more beautiful siglos incuses! (My wife informs me that this something that only a true coin nerd could possibly appreciate. )

"The Force is strong with this one..."

 

WOW!

We've used the adjective "epic" many times during this tournament but this... this is truly an epic match.

What a well-considered play by IAT! He knew he had to put forth an extremely strong candidate in the History/Numismatic value to stand a chance against Sev and he picked one of the best coins, history-wise. Against almost any coin the odds of winning for History seem strong.

Who could have foreseen though that the other coin would be such a rarity, such a historical giant, and with its own action figure?

IAT sacrificed beauty for history. I thought Sev would have no chance at all in the Eye Appeal category because I don't recall ever seeing an IAT coin that wasn't eye candy. IAT might not sweep the Looks vote this time. How unexpected!

As for bargain, wow. Just wow. Both players surely thought they had a lock on the Bargain vote. A Lydian siglos for $212? A good price when compared to others in a similar wear state! A well-struck and unusually well-preserved Themistocles for $27? Insane bargain!!

I have neither coin and want both. Someday I'd add a Croesus siglos (or stater fractional, if budget allows) but have put it off because they are always available. Until Sev's writeup I was unaware of the awesome Themistocles coins. Now I must have one. Competition for them just got a lot harder though thanks to this tournament and Sev's great post.

This line should be inducted into the CoinTalk Hall of Fame.

 

Tough match for sure!

 

Score Update
Severus Alexander - 62
iamtiberius - 62

This vote isn't easy for me. I've changed my vote on interest twice...

It comes down to whether I think numismatic significance (IAT) or historical coolness (SA) should take the edge. At this point I am not sure and I may well change my mind several more times before the poll times me out.

 

Oops double post... stupid cell phone signal.

 

Still tied. That's a lovely fraction seldom seen at auction. This is going to be close.

 

Whatever the outcome, kudos to both contestants!

IAT... that was a brilliant play and great writeup. Well done!

Sev-- super coin, fantastic bargain, fun writeup. Fabulous!

I'm truly sad that both entries can't win.

 

Thanks, TIF!!

To @iamtiberius: "Join me! With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict, and bring order to the galaxy tournament!"

 

I am generally quite partial to “first of” or “origin” coins, but I will always prefer a coin that clearly ties to a fun, interesting, and important story.

 

Unbelievable match up with you two contenders, could not split the historical write up's both exciting and a credit to the coins, I had to give my bargain vote to Sev as this priceless piece of history was virtually given away. As for eye appeal I had to get the coin toss going again and Sev one that even if you have to use one of these Mother of all magnifying LED glasses (my son gave me for father's day)

 

Wait, wait you forgot your theme music...

 

Gotta bump this fantastic match off of page 2 sooo... ummm. Here is a Siglos from about a century and a half later than IAT's coin.

 

I was pretty close to playing an early daric; but figured I would need something more "budgety" to compete with @Severus Alexander . It would have been a more historically accurate battle, (Xerxes vs Themistocles,) but an inferior match.

PERSIA, Achaemenid Empire. temp. Darios I to Xerxes II. Circa 485-420 BC. AV Daric (14.5mm, 8.29 g). Lydo-Milesian standard. Sardes mint. Persian king or hero, wearing kidaris and kandys, quiver over shoulder, in kneeling-running stance right, holding spear and bow / Incuse punch. Carradice Type IIIb, Group A/B (pl. XIII, 27); Meadows, Administration 321; BMC Arabia pl. XXIV, 26; Sunrise 24.

-Michael