[Poll-25] #4 ancientcoinguru vs #21 Ryro (Round 3) CIT 2018

Hello everyone and welcome to Round 3 of the 2018 CoinTalk Imperator Tournament! If you are unaware of the tournament I invite you to get caught up with all the fun in the master thread;

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/an...annual-coin-imperator-tournament-2018.320328/



The winner of this match will be moving on to the semifinals! A big thank you to all of our participants. Without further ado…

............................................................​

#4 @ancientcoinguru


CRUSADER Cyprus
1310-1324 Henry II (second reign)
AR gros 4.34gm - 16mm
Obv: Henry II seated on curule chair, with foreparts of lions at sides, facing, cloak fastened with brooch on his right shoulder; holding a scepter in his right hand and a globus cruciger in his left "hENRI REI DE"
Rev: Cross of Jerusalem "+IERUSALEM E DE ChIPR"
Reference: CCS 52

Price: $140

Why It is Cool:
Crusader coins are cool. And coins related to the Knights Templar, a wealthy and powerful Catholic military order closely tied to the Crusades, are especially intriguing.

This specific coin appealed to me since Henry II played a pivotal role in the history of the Knights Templar -- it was Henry II who oversaw the dissolution of the Knights Templar in Cyprus in 1313 and the transfer of their property to the Hospitallers. It was minted by Henry II early in his second reign and quite likely circulated in Cyprus during the last days of the Knights Templar.

Bargain:
Medieval coins are relatively inexpensive, but Crusader coins can draw a premium. While this coin is far from perfect, I was impressed by some of the fine details – one can see the fingers of the left hand which holds the globus cruciger, and King Henry’s facial expression and drapery is visible. In the past 2 years, CNG sold 3 of these coins in their e-auction for $180-$220 plus buyer’s fee. I felt this coin was a good buy at $140, especially since my coin is in better condition than the 3 sold in the CNG e-auctions.

History:
Crusader coins are those which were produced by the autonomous Latin states established in the eastern Mediterranean. For 100 years, Acre formed the base of the crusading movement in Palestine and was the last secure stronghold of the kingdom of Jerusalem.

The Knights Templar were one of the wealthiest and most powerful military orders during the Crusades. Founded in 1119, they had a reputation as skilled warriors and shrewd tacticians, but also had a large percentage of their members who managed their finances (the wealth of almost 1000 strongholds). With the fall of Acre in 1291, support for the Templars faded. Phillip IV of France arrested and tortured many of the Templars in 1307 into giving false confessions and gained control of their finances, and Pope Clement V disbanded the order in 1312.

In spite of being an epileptic, in poor health, and in a power struggle with his brothers, Henry II’s first reign lasted over 20 years (1285-1306). In 1306, he was removed from power and exiled by his brother, Amalric, who was aided by the Templars. But in 1310, Henry II was returned to the throne with the aid of the Hospitallers. Perhaps in retaliation for the aid the Templars gave his brother, and as a reward for the aid the Hospitallers provided to him, Henry II gave the Templars property to the Hospitallers.


Kolossi Castle: One of the strongholds taken from the Templars and given to the Hospitallers by Henry II in 1313 (image from Wikipedia)

During Henry II’s second reign, which lasted until his death in 1324, Cyprus enjoyed comparative peace. Though the desire to recapture Jerusalem was still alive, Henry II and the Genoese were not able to accomplish this. However, Henry II of Cyprus is still an interesting figure in the history of Crusades -- he holds a place in the history books as the last man to ever be crowned King of Jerusalem in 1286, and the last Crusader king to hold Acre.

............................................................
​

#21 @Ryro


Tiberius
AD 14-37 CE. AR Denarius minted at Lugdunum.
Laureate head right of Tiberius.
Reverse: Female figure (Livia as Pax?) seated right.
RIC 26; BMC 34. Appealing portrait; Choice Very Fine.
The "Tribute Penny" of Biblical fame.

Price: $54

Why It’s Cool:
Bargain:
Just to give a flavor for how good a deal this purchase was, the coin was merely listed as "Bible coin-Tribute penny" with no other description from a seller who had no other coins for sale. His ID was: rarebiblesandmore. Below is the only picture that was shown along with that meager description. It shows only the reverse at a pixelated, slanted, upside down angle. Which also shows what a gamble this steal of a deal really was!

(oh, the exhilaration when my coin had finally arrived with that beautiful clear portrait and easily readable inscription)

History:
This is probably the coin referenced by Jesus Christ in the bible! More about the "probably" in a bit.

Like many of my favorite stories, this one begins with a set-up (que the piano playing "The Entertainer"). A few schmucks decided they will get Jesus to speak out against taxation so they can hand him over to Pilate and be done with the rebelliously long haired up start (while possibly lining their pockets with a few "pennies" for the treachery).

So one fella (who looked suspiciously like a false beard wearing Robert Redford) asked, "Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?" Jesus asked to see a "penny" to inspect it. The Greek word here is "dēnarion" ala Roman Denarius (yeah, I WISH I could get a Denarius for a penny).


The Tribute Money – 1516 painting by Titian commissioned by Alfonso I d’Este to serve as the decoration for the door of his ancient coin cabinet. (Wikipedia)

After inspection, Jesus asks a rather Paul Newmanesque fellow who's on the coin. Butch Cassidy answers, "Caesar". Whereupon Jesus said, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's". Impressed, and realizing the grift was up, they went away. "The Sting" the parable is not. But rather a summary of Christ's view on balancing religion, government and society. Get it?


Paul Newman in “The Sting”

The reasoning for the Tiberius Denarius being the "penny" thought to be referenced is simply because Tiberius would have been in power at this point in time. That being said, there is a strong case that the Augustus denarius showing Lucius and Gaius on the reverse is the actual tribute penny. It would have been more readily available. Especially in a place as far off as Judaea where Tiberius Denarii may not have made it to.


(Redford took a bite out of mine to make sure it was real)
Augustus
Silver Denarius, 27 BC-CE 14.
Lugdunum, 2 BC-AD 12.
Obverse: CAESAR AVGVSTVS DIVI F PATER PATRIAE, laureate head of Augustus right.
Reverse: AVGVSTI F COS DESIG PRINCIVVENT around, CL CAESARES in exergue, Gaius and Lucius Caesars standing facing each other.

As well, there are many other coin-didates for the title Tribute Penny handed to Jesus...which only matters IF you believe the story really took place. As I would be remiss if I didn't mention that there is a very similar story told in the Gospel of Thomas. Except in this one the coin is gold (sorry, I have no Roman gold, or any gold coins for that matter, to illustrate here).



All in all, like any story with multiple versions from multiple storytellers and none can be proven, we want to take into account the author/s and their intentions for perpetuating the parable. Jesus is shown as the "mark" being targeted by nefarious outsiders whom he is able to outsmart while still giving us a good moral on how we should balance our lives. In the end we have here, in this short story, all the elements to make Aesop proud and one fun and highly collectible coin/con.

Pianoman, play me out...

............................................................​

A Gentle Reminder
The first two rounds went about as well as anyone could have hoped from the perspective of keeping the commentary fun, interesting and friendly. It would be a challenge to run a tournament of this type on almost any other board but with the great people here on CT it has been both an honor and a pleasure. Lets try to keep up with the perfect score in the friendliness department by concentrating comments on why you liked an entry instead of why you didn't like the other.

Remember that everyone gets 3 votes to choose which coin you think comes out on top in each of the three categories. With that I will open the thread for comments, opinions, coin pile-ons and random posting of coin things as you see fit.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Probably part of the reason why The Council of Nicea threw out the Book of Thomas. What soldier would be walking around with a month's wages in the form of one gold coin?

Awesome coins, both. It's hard to beat the historical/numismatic significance of The Tribute Penny. The gros is a better photo. Decisions decisions on budget...

 

That Henry II is stupendous

Of course the tribute penny is unavoidable to an ancient coin collector, but it's so controversial about it being either a denarius, or a shekel, or a tetradrachm, or whatever, that the story is sometimes difficult to swallow (nothing to do with european or african swallow ). However that's a bargain, even if before a bargain it's been a bet...

Q

 

I agree on all counts. Two great coins and it's going to be immensely entertaining to see who comes out on top in this one.

It seems that swallows are now the unofficial mascot of the tournament

... also, nice new avatar Q. I'm loving the Gaulish intensity gloves are off!

 

Au contraire, this is where the action is in this contest. IMO its secure connection with important history allows the Henry to edge out the Tiberius, due to the latter's rather tenuous links. (Which @Ryro describes so well. Oops! )

Looks like it's going to be a close one!!

 

First, if it says Ryro, it'll probably be close to a tyro!
And second, Ouch! SA hitting below the belt, petitioning for my rival in the area I have most votes. I guess we'll be doing this tag team wrestling style. Have no fear @iamtiberius I have your back when you and incredulous Alexander square off. I've brought a secret weapon...Canadian kryptonite. Non alcoholic beer!

 

Wow, gutsy gamble, Ryro! The price you paid was a downright bargain, and it’s a much nicer example than many of these you see.

As for acg’s excellent Crusader coin, I think it has plenty of eye and historic appeal, even for non-Medieval collectors.

It’s going to be another close one!

 

i collect both ancient and medieval -Templar coins..great show here folks..

 

Great Crusader coin! I don't even have a medieval and that is a wonderful coin @ancientcoinguru !

@Ryro that is a great eBay gamble, one I would not have made. Excellent portrait!

 

Both are great coins. Since I am starting to dabble in medievals a bit, my tendencies fell that way. But a halfway-decent “Tribute Penny” for $54 was a definite bargain.

A building built by the Knights Templar in Metz, France



My only Crusader coin.



I have an example of an Augustus Denarius from Lugdunum, but pictures will be taken tomorrow.

 

These are two very fine coins and fun write-ups – my vote is split. Thanks to both contestants for showing their coins and taking the time to tell us something about them!

@ancientcoinguru , I very much admire the beautiful full-length portrait of Henry II. Also, I now feel the urge to find out more about the motif of the lion throne, which I mainly know from Armenian coins.

These two aren't crusader coins in the strict sense. Yet, they were struck for the German king Conrad IV of Hohenstaufen (1228–1254) who inherited the title "King of Jerusalem" from his mother Isabella:


Conrad IV/II, Kingdom of Sicily, BI denaro, 1250–1254 AD, struck at Messina. Obv: + CON[R]ADVS, cross with two diamonds in fields. Rev: + IER[L E]T SICIL, RX with omega-stroke above. 15mm, 0.68g. Ref: Spahr 155.


Conrad IV/II, Kingdom of Sicily, BI denaro, 1250–1254 AD, struck at Brindisi or Messina. Obv: + [CO]NRADVS, cross. Rev: + IERL E[T SIC]IL, RX-ligature. 15mm, 0.70g. Ref: Spahr 153.

@Ryro, what a great bargain for such a desirable coin! Mine was a bit more than twice what you paid, and I still consider it a very good deal:


Tiberius, Roman Empire, AR denarius, 15–18 AD, struck at Lyon. Obv: TI CAESAR DIVI AVG F AVGVSTVS, laureate portrait right. Rev: PONTIF MA[XIM], Livia as Pax seated right on chair with ornately decorated legs, holding sceptre (or spear) and branch. 18mm, 2.8g. Ref: RIC I 28; RSC II 16b; Sear 1763; Giard: Le monnayage de l'atelier de Lyon 1 (1983), group 2, 146.

 

Nice looking portrait!...and the crusader coins are pretty cool as well...I guess

 

Two great coins that I am sure most would want in their collections especially at the bargain price both payed, but the historical aspect of it I gave my vote to ancientcoinguru as fascinated to learn and see the pics all new to me. As for eye appeal it's a toss up.

 

You also both did a fantastic job writing up the coins and describing why they're interesting.

 

Thanks! @ancientcoinguru sure did an awesome job on her write-up...mine might have slightly gone over some copyright infringement lines. Hehe. Good thing Newman was always known for being a charitable fellow ps, Cool Hand Luke is "hands" down my favorite movie of all time!

 

Nice medievals @Orielensis! I enjoyed seeing another coin minted by a “King of Jerusalem”

Your comment about the lion motif led me to do some research. I’m certainly not a medieval expert, but my preliminary research showed Henri II and his successor, Hugo IV von Lusigan (1324-1359) using a lion throne on their coins. What was the significance of the lion throne to the Lusignan Kingdom of Cyprus? Perhaps it was simply to show “the seat of the ruler.” Or is it a reference to the famous Lion Throne of King Solomon, the son of David, mentioned in the Bible?

 

@Ryro, I enjoyed your write-up, and you got quite a bargain on that coin! Nice play, it’s going to be close.

 

I also did a little bit of reading and found this small article on the lion's throne in the Künker auction catalogue 130. To summarize: the motif is, as you suggested, of biblical origin. Heavily stylized lion's thrones already appear on the coins of the German emperor Frederick Barbarossa (r. 1152–1190). Later and more realistic depictions of lion heads attached to thrones found on German medieval coins likely copy from the coins of Levon I of Armenia (1150–1219). Yet, Cypriotic coins such as yours are unfortunately not mentioned in the catalogue.

 

@Ryro -- not only is this coin my avatar, but it was the first ancient coin I ever acquired!

 

According to my calculations there are still plenty of people who haven't weighed in!

This match closes this afternoon. Don't miss your chance to participate in this fantastic match!