[Poll-16] #6 Jwt708 vs #27 Severus Alexander (Round 1) CIT 2018

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Curtisimo, Aug 2, 2018.

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Please vote on the coin you think wins in each of the following categories. 3 votes per voter

Poll closed Aug 5, 2018.
  1. Eye appeal (#6 Jwt708)

    25 vote(s)
    42.4%
  2. Best bargain (#6 Jwt708)

    4 vote(s)
    6.8%
  3. Historical or numismatic interest (#6 Jwt708)

    18 vote(s)
    30.5%
  4. Eye appeal (#27 Severus Alexander)

    34 vote(s)
    57.6%
  5. Best bargain (#27 Severus Alexander)

    55 vote(s)
    93.2%
  6. Historical or numismatic interest (#27 Severus Alexander)

    41 vote(s)
    69.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    Welcome to Round 1 of CIT 2018! If you are unaware of the tournament I invite you to get caught up with all the fun on the following link:

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ancients-it’s-time-the-second-annual-coin-imperator-tournament-2018.320328/

    Bracket-1.jpg

    This will be our last match-up of Round 1 folks. A couple of great coins to send the first leg of our tournament out on a high note! Enjoy the show everyone :)

    ............................................................​

    #6 @Jwt708

    Jwt708-1.jpg
    ROMAN REPUBLIC. M. Sergius Silus
    AR Denarius, 19mm, 3.9g, 9h; Rome, 116-115 BC.
    Obv.: Helmeted head of Roma right; ROMA and XVI monogram behind, EX•S•C before.
    Rev.: Soldier on horseback rearing left, holding sword and severed Gallic head in left hand; Q M SERGI below, SILVS in exergue.
    Ref.: Crawford 286/1


    Price: $225

    Why It's Cool:
    Military themes are always a big win with me. The reverse of this coin is celebrating the exploits of Marcus Sergius, who our esteemed @John Anthony described as the "Roman Republican Rambo." I will let Pliny explain the history:

    Nobody - at least in my opinion - can rightly rank any man above Marcus Sergius, although his great-grandson Catiline shames his name. In his second campaign Sergius lost his right hand. In two campaigns he was wounded twenty-three times, with the result that he had no use in either hand or either foot: only his spirit remained intact. Although disabled, Sergius served in many subsequent campaigns. He was twice captured by Hannibal - no ordinary foe- from whom twice he escaped, although kept in chains and shackles every day for twenty months. He fought four times with only his left hand, while two horses he was riding were stabbed beneath him.

    He had a right hand made of iron for him and, going into battle with this bound to his arm, raised the siege of Cremona, saved Placentia and captured twelve enemy camps in Gaul - all of which exploits were confirmed by the speech he made as praetor when his colleagues tried to debar him as infirm from the sacrifices. What piles of wreaths he would have amassed in the face of a different enemy!

    Natural History,
    Book 7 Chapter 28

    The image fails to capture all the toning. This coin is much brighter in hand with iridescent gold and blue hues. I was very pleased to have this coin in hand.

    Also, there is a severed head on the reverse!

    ............................................................​

    #27 @Severus Alexander

    Screen Shot 2018-07-26 at 10.49.32 PM.jpg
    Constantius I as Caesar, 293-305; issued 296/7
    Silver-washed AE follis, Alexandria (third officina), 9.18g, 21.5mm
    Obv: FL VAL CONSTANTIVS NOB CAES, Laureate bust right
    Rev: GENIO POPVLI ROMANI, Genius standing left, holding patera and cornucopia; at feet to left, eagle standing left, head turned upward
    Reference: RIC VI Alexandria 21a
    Provenance: The Dattari Collection


    Price: $58

    Why It's Cool:
    Just a lovely but ordinary tetrarchal GENIO? Not on your life!
    This coin was issued by the rare usurper Domitius Domitianus from his headquarters at Alexandria, with all the awesome history that comes along with that. Even better, coins like mine have actually played a major role in reconstructing that history.

    But first: how do we know that my coin was issued by Domitianus? A number of factors make this virtually certain. For example, the best explanation for the unique addition of the eagle to the GENIO type is that it represents Domitianus’s Imperial pretensions. Most importantly, the coins in the name of Domitianus (which fall under a single issue) correspond very exactly to their equivalents for the tetrarchs, even down to such details as the orientation of the eagle’s head for officina gamma (see image below, and footnote [1]). As RIC notes, they are clearly part of the same issue. Domitianus is entirely absent from the next Alexandrian issue, which must have come after his defeat.

    The revolt was initially very successful, and must have recalled the dark days of the third century crisis. Cleverly, Domitianus pretended legitimacy, issuing coins like mine bearing the tetrarchs’ portraits [2]. He also timed the revolt well, taking advantage of Egyptian Greek unhappiness with new taxes and demoted status, as well as the empire’s wars on several fronts, most seriously with the aggressive new Persian Shah, Narses. As a result, the emperors couldn’t mount an armed response without stretching their regime to its breaking point. However, Diocletian was plotting his revenge…

    After a few months’ delay, the senior emperor himself took it in hand to quell the revolt, which had by this time engulfed the entire province. After intense fighting, Domitianus was corralled into Alexandria and put under siege. The siege reportedly lasted eight months; at some point, Domitianus met his death and Diocletian rejoiced. When the city finally fell, Diocletian’s wrath was terrible: in a city of a million people, it would be the sack to end all sacks. “Do not stop,” he said, “until the blood reaches my horse’s knees.”

    Except… just as he uttered this merciless command, his horse stumbled and bloodied its knees in entrails. Diocletian knew a sign from the gods when he saw one, and mercilessness was transmuted to mercy in the nick of time. Diocletian marked his victory by erecting one of the largest columns ever produced from a single stone, still standing proudly in Alexandria today (see the image below). The populace of Alexandria erected a rather different monument, a statue of their saviour: Diocletian’s horse! :woot: [3][4]

    Bonus history points: Constantius I is an important historical figure in his own right, and also father to Constantine the Great. Constantine was likely present while the rebellion was quashed, since Diocletian had him in his entourage as a hostage to his father's good behaviour.

    Numismatic interest: The introduction of the follis was a momentous event across the empire, but particularly so in Alexandria where a protected economy had previously restricted internal circulation to the locally produced tetradrachm et al. This coin is significant as an early Alexandrian follis. Second, it has a great provenance: the famous Dattari collection. Giovanni Dattari assembled what was undoubtedly the best ever collection of Imperial-era Alexandrian coins in the late 19th and early 20th centuries [5].

    Value for money: $58 would be a great price even for an ordinary Genio follis in this condition; with the Domitianus connection (missed by the seller) and the Dattari provenance, it was a super bargain. CNG sold a significantly worse example in 2010 for $175 plus juice (also without noting Domitianus). That’s the only other example on acsearch. It seems that my coin may in fact be the best preserved example of the type; I have seen none better in auction archives, shop archives, or museum examples. As you know, “best of type” typically commands a very large premium, especially for historically significant coins.

    Perhaps I should just quote Warren Esty on this point: “Severus Alexander, your Constantius version is really special and you got a super bargain. Congratulations!” Are you going to argue with @Valentinian? :)

    Footnotes: will be provided in a separate post in this thread because I've already taken too much space. :D

    const DD image.jpg

    ............................................................​

    A Gentle Reminder
    We have had a remarkably fun and friendly tournament so far and I want to thank all of our members who have contributed and commented :) Let's continue to do a good job of keeping our tournament friendly! Instead of focusing comments too much on why you didn't vote for one coin over the other try to focus on why you did vote for the one you chose!

    Remember that everyone gets 3 votes to choose which coin you think comes out on top in each of the three categories. With that I will open the floor to comments, pile-ons and shameless lobbying.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
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  3. Milesofwho

    Milesofwho Omnivorous collector

    This is the first time I’ve really felt compelled to write about the two coins above, mostly because someone else’s post summed up my feelings on the matter and I didn’t see the point in being redundant. For the first coin, it is one I am familiar with. I knew the story behind the coin before it was told here. The writing was nice though. The coin itself has nice toning, and a nice story to back it up. The second one was one I was completely unfamiliar with. I knew that Domitius Domitianus was an Alexandrian usurper who issued a few coins, but knew not much more than that. I certainly didn’t know he issued coins in the names of the Tetrarchs, or the history of how the revolt started and failed. The writeup had great flow to it, and was very colorful. The coin has great silvering, and thus great condition. Overall, my general thoughts on the matter was that it was a battle between the often-told story and something completely new. My votes reflect my feelings on the matter.
     
  4. R*L

    R*L Well-Known Member

    Hmm I know these threads are filled with posts lamenting having to make tricky decisions (and I'm responsible for a few of those) but this may be the toughest yet!

    After seeing Jwt708's coin and reading the description I was impressed. Scrolling down I saw "a lovely but ordinary tetrarchal GENIO", and thought nice coin, eye appeals going to be a tricky call but I know where my other votes are going, but then I read the description and now I don't know what to do...

    They are both great coins and great write-ups
     
  5. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    Here are those footnotes! :shame:

    [1] For details, see RIC VI, pp. 647-650, and this translation by Dane "Helvetica" Kurth (wildwinds.com) of the article by Jacqueline Lallemand in Revue Belge de Numismatique, 1951, pp. 89-103 and plate VI. For more familiar authorities :smuggrin: see Victor Clark’s CT post here, and Warren Esty’s page.

    [2] … just as Carausius had previously done in Britain (RIC VI, p. 647; see also @@jamesicus here). Both are much scarcer than those produced in the name of the usurpers themselves, presumably because the tetrarchs were quickly dropped from the coinage when it became clear to everyone that what was wanted was not heads on coins, but on platters. :bucktooth:

    [3] The story of the horse is found in the 6th century Chronicle of John Malalas.

    [4] I haven’t given exact dates, partly because they are still somewhat controversial; however, the current near-consensus opinion is that the revolt began in spring 297, and the siege of Alexandria concluded in late summer or early fall 298. The most cited articles on this point are Allan C. Johnson, Classical Philology, Vol. 45, No. 1 (Jan., 1950), pp. 13-21; and J. David Thomas, Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik, Bd. 22 (1976), pp. 253-279. The other main candidate is 295/6, defended primarily by Jacques Schwartz in various publications. It seems to me that Schwartz’s critique of Johnson is weak, while Thomas’s critique of Schwartz is compelling, but I’m no expert. The numismatic community hasn’t caught up with the consensus, issues of Domitianus are usually dated 295/6 in catalogues.

    [5] Lucia Carbone, “Giovanni Dattari and His Fabled Collection of Alexandrian Coins,” ANS Journal (Issue 2, 2018), pp. 6-27.
     
    Cucumbor, zumbly, TIF and 1 other person like this.
  6. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 Well-Known Member

    Two great coins and write ups. I actually own an example of Sergius denarius and a Genio Follis. But I'm still not sure how we determine that a coin with Constantine's name on it can be attributed to Domitianus. I read the post several times but I'm missing something...
     
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  7. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Great job, both of you :)

    @Jwt708, that is such an interesting type and I understand why it is particularly special to you. Knowing that type of detail about why a person chooses a given coin is always interesting. By the way, do you think there is any chance that the one-armed horseman who is dragging a captive on coins of moneyer Licinius Nerva could also be Marcus Sergius? I don't think Licinius Nerva has family connections to M. Sergius, but it is curious...

    @Severus Alexander... fabulous! I was unaware that Domitius Domitianus connection. Dagnabbit... now everyone on CoinTalk is going to be competing for one, including me. Super coin, super pedigree, super bargain/value, super history.

    I was skeptical too but read the sources cited in Sev's first footnote. Is it a certainty? No, but it seems likely that Domitius Domitianus was in control when these were struck.
     
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  8. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    Thanks! The basic thing is that the similarities between this issue with the tetrarchs' portraits and Domitianus's coins are so close as to be only explicable by having been issued at the same time.

    Here are the most relevant bits of RIC:
    Screen Shot 2018-08-02 at 5.32.56 PM.jpg
    Screen Shot 2018-08-02 at 5.33.33 PM.jpg
    A summary: It was standard practice to distinguish issues by particular markings. The first two Alexandrian issues of folles [(i) and (ii) in RIC] were in the tetrarchs' names only, first without a star or crescent, then with. Then Domitianus issues show up [RIC's (iii)], with the eagle, which – importantly – is not found at any other mint. (It doesn't show up again anywhere until 15 years later.) Coins in the tetrarchs' names match exactly: eagle, no other marks besides officina, and even the design characteristics of each officina extend across both the Domitianus coins and the coins with the tetrarchs' portraits. Then we get RIC's (iv), still an eagle but with no examples for Domitianus, and a star added to the reverse: Domitianus's reverse dies altered for a post-siege non-Domitianus issue, until new dies can be produced.

    Note that RIC has the wrong dates though... the authors didn't have access to a number of papyri that have recently been recovered, showing that the date of the revolt was actually 296-7.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
  9. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    That is a great coin, @Jwt708!! In fact I have been trying to get one for a while, but haven't been able to land one where the severed head on the reverse is clearly a head... as on yours! :) Often the head just looks like a misshapen blob. Nicely played!

    Such a great historical character, I think "the Rambo coin" should become standard CT lingo for this one. :)
     
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  10. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the RIC notes. Very interesting. I'll have to delve deeper into this.

    Here's my Sergius with long hair severed head...

    normal_Sergius_Silius.jpg
     
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  11. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Very impressed by both. Domitianus died and was succeeded by Achilleus of whom no coins are known. I have seen the column of Diocletian on my last visit to Alexandria.
     
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  12. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    Thanks! Yes, Achilleus was Domitianus's right hand man, apparently with the title of "corrector." At some point he got stuck with the job of defending Alexandria, the poor guy.

    I've never been there... very envious!
     
  13. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    Kind words and I agree with the Rambo designation. Even ignoring the question of who minted your coin, its a very nice follis purchased at a good price.

    I'm getting clobbered in the contest though!
     
  14. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    These things can change. Baby face curly-beard is still very afraid of Rambo... :nailbiting:
     
  15. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    I don't really know anything specific about the moniers, Roman Republican is not a specialty of mine. I suspect that as military service was so important to government positions, and with the end of the recent Gallic war, the heroics would be a popular subject.

    The coin you posted is now one I need to have!
     
  16. Theodosius

    Theodosius Fine Style Seeker

    All I can say is, what a great contest this has been do far with so many top coins and interesting write ups!

    A mini education in ancient coins and their incredible diversity.

    Now how do I vote in this match up???

    John
     
  17. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

  18. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Both you guys have beautifull coins, writeups! It is going to be so hard to vote;) It may come down to a split decision.
    John
     
  19. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Excellent coins and information. I learned something from this thread, and that's a good thing.

    I have an example of the Sergius Silus, but no Alexandria example to show of Constantius I.

    M SERGIUS SILUS.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
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  20. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    So, I was able to consult with Diocletian about this match up and unfortunately for @Severus Alexander he was not impressed with your coin... not at all.
    Diocletian_Follis_AD_296-7_Ticinum.jpg
    I think at one point he used the words "upstart nobody" and "I will melt him down for scrap." Oh boy :eek: He also wished for me to tell the group that he sold that clumsy and worthless horse after that incident and got a nice Thessalian horse which he named Bucephalus.

    Thinking that the father of a saint would be more gracious I asked what Constantius I thought.
    IMG_4506.JPG
    Unfortunately he said he couldn't comment due to the ongoing litigation concerning Domitius Domitianus' unauthorized use of his name and likeness. Burn.

    In short I don't think your coin will be invited to the tetrarchy Christmas party this year SA :p:jimlad:

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    @Jwt708 I love that coin! It made me think and look through my coins to see if I had anything as "Rambo-y" - and I got nothing!

    At some point it would be interesting to have a thread on what the most overtly war-like / violent coin types are! Very few of my coins actually have direct combat or conflict on them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
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  21. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    I have a Sergius Silus too, and think it's a great type and that the example @Jwt708 fielded is an excellent one. I do also think the struck-under-Domitius-Domitianus follis is a great type, but unfortunately, I don't have one in my collection, and I think that @Severus Alexander has just made it that much more difficult for me to score one. I have cast my votes accordingly... :mad:
     
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