[Poll-11] #14 iamtiberius vs #19 MontCollector (Round 1) CIT 2018

Welcome to Round 1 of CIT 2018! If you are unaware of the tournament I invite you to get caught up with all the fun on the following link:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/an...annual-coin-imperator-tournament-2018.320328/



I want to give a special thank you to the participants for volunteering to play the game. We have a great group of people here at CT.

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#14 @iamtiberius


CILICIA. Soloi. Circa 440-410 BC. Stater
Amazon, nude to the waist, kneeling left and stringing her bow; wearing bonnet and with her gorytos at her hip; to right, facing head of satyr. Rev.ΣΟΛΕΩΝ Bunch of grapes; to right, fly; all within incuse square. Casabonne Type 2. SNG Levante 40. SNG Paris 128
10.71g
22.1mm

Price: $844

Why It’s Cool:
Soloi was a Greek city state founded ca. 700 BC located in ancient Cilicia (modern southern Turkey). According to Greek legend, when the Amazons came to conquer Asia Minor in the distant past the people of Cilicia accepted them and were allowed to live in peace. The city of Soloi may have been named after a figure in Greek mythology, a young Athenian named Solois, who was associated with the Amazons. Solois was a companion of Theseus and accompanied him on his voyages after Theseus had abducted the Amazon princess Antiope. Solois fell madly in love with Antiope and when he learned that she did not return his affections he drowned himself in a river. The Amazon shown on the obverse of the coin may well depict Antiope in a reference to this myth.

Playing up the connection with the Athenian Solois on their coins (through Antiope) may have been a subtle strategy on the part of Soloi to curry favor with Athens during a time when the inhabitants of the city favored Athenian over Persian interests. (Persia and Athens had been rivals for control of Asia Minor for decades)

Apollonius of Rhodes described the Amazons, a warring tribe of women, as being the offspring of Ares, God of War, and a nymph named Harmonia. The satyr in right field could be an inference to Harmonia, or part of an unknown myth told in Soloi; but this is merely conjecture. It is recorded that the female archers would disrobe the upper half, or at least the left side as to eliminate any drag the fletching of an arrow would produce across their clothing; increasing speed and accuracy of their arrows. This is represented on my coin, with her left breast exposed.

The region of Soloi was well regarded in antiquity as having exceptionally fertile land. Pliny the Elder recorded Cilician wine as being held in the highest esteem. The "Bunch of Grapes" shown on the reverse of my coin is a staple on several Cilician coins; with coins of Soloi being no exception. It seems the people of Soloi may have enjoyed their domestic product too much however, They were often on the receiving end of Athenian insults describing their dialect as grammatically incorrect; which is where the word "solecism" is derived.

This coin is interesting because it offers a glimpse into both the mythology and the day to day life of an ancient classical Greek city. My specific example is well centered, deeply struck, and maintains a lustrous surface. Rare for the type, as most either suffer from warn dies, die rust, or weekly struck obverses/reverses.

I had a feeling I would be able to get a few decent deals when Leu suddenly appeared again; knowing their new format wasn't known yet and their name hadn't been around for a few years. I was able to pick up 4 Lots in this auction, with the Soloi Stater being the best deal, imho. Similar examples have approached 2k.

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#19 @MontCollector


Elegabalus...218-222 AD
Silver Denarius
Minted: 221 AD
Obv: IMP ANTONINVS PIVS AVG, Draped bust right, laureate, horned
Rev: PM TR P IIII COS III P P, Emperor standing left sacrificing out of patera over lighted altar, holding branch in right hand, star in left.
Ric 46 Sear 7536

Price: $79

Why It’s Cool:
The emperor Elagabalus has a reputation as a bit of an odd duck. To me this coin is cool because it has led to some extremely weird theories about some weird head-gear that may have been worn by this really weird emperor. More on that below.

The emperor Elagabalus became emperor when he was 14 years old largely due to the scheming of his Grandmother, Julia Maesa. Claiming he was the secret son of Caracalla and bribing the legions didn’t hurt either, though. Before that he was the high priest of a rather obscure Syrian god known as Elegabalus (meaning “God of the Mountain”). As soon as he was confirmed emperor problems started to arise with his over-the-top personality and his devotion to this weird eastern religion.

Even typically reliable contemporary sources (like Cassius Dio) claim he did some pretty crazy stuff, such as that he had agents find suitable mates so that he could make a farcical show of prostituting himself in the royal palace and that he even tried to replace Jupiter with Elagabalus as the head of the Roman pantheon (both pretty offensive things to do if you were the emperor).

So what does all this have to do with my coin? Well, in the late 1990’s an academic paper made the case that the “horn” shown on the obverse of some coins struck at Rome (such as mine) is none other than the tip of a dried bull phallus. Yup, the study actually conducted experiments to see if the size and shape matched the coin and in exchange for your votes I will not post the results to this thread . The study (written in German) seems to claim that there was a connection with wearing that and the cult of Elegabalus and even shows what appears to be the that on a reverse with a sacrifice scene very similar to mine.

Another theory, of course, is that it was just some sort of animal horn. But that theory is not nearly as weird as this emperor deserves.

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A Gentle Reminder
We have had a remarkably fun and friendly tournament so far and I want to thank all of our members who have contributed and commented Let's continue to do a good job of keeping our tournament friendly! Instead of focusing comments too much on why you didn't vote for one coin over the other try to focus on why you did vote for the one you chose!

Remember that everyone gets 3 votes to choose which coin you think comes out on top in each of the three categories. With that I will open the floor to comments, pile-ons and shameless lobbying.

 

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@MontCollector The obverse on your denarius is perfect. I always wondered about the item on top of his head. I always assumed it was a stray laureate leaf. Are there any bare head or radiate examples that depict the phallus/horn?

 

I don't think that there are. At least not that I am aware of. The horn seems to only appear on some examples struck at Rome. There was some interesting discussion about these a while back.

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/1st-elagabalus-denarius.296946/

 

That satyr on the obverse field of @iamtiberius' coin reminds me of Karl Malden...the nose maybe !



Q

PS : fantastic coin BTW !

 

Vivid imagination!

 

Both are excellent.

 

Great horned Elagabalus/Emperor sacrificing over altar denarius, @MontCollector! Did you recently add it to the Forvm BOT? I feel like I saw it last month, with its lustrous silver... Here's mine that I picked up a couple months ago.


Elagabalus, 218-222 AD
AR Denarius, Rome Mint, Struck 220-222 AD
Obverse: IMP ANTONINVS PIVS AVG (no break), Horned, laureate, draped and bearded bust right.
Reverse: INVICTVS SACERDOS AVG, Elagabalus, in Syrian priestly robes, standing half left, sacrificing holding patera in right hand over lighted altar, a club or cypress in his left hand. A recumbent bull sits behind the altar, star in left field.
References: RIC IV 88b, RSC 61, BMCRE 212

(edit) I just noticed your reverse legend is not the Sacredos type that mine is. Cool!

 

Nice coin and write up @iamtiberius . Good luck in the round.

Yes this is the one in the BOT gallery. I figured it deserved a place there.

Here is a dumb question. Are we allowed to vote in our own rounds?

 

Yes feel free to vote

 

Another round where it is hard to decide. But I think @MontCollector got a real bargain.

 

So the laurel wreath was the party hat and radiate crown meant business? @MontCollector you as well. I imagine it was hard to photograph a refractive surface like that. My shiny denarii always turn out poorly. It's a great image.

 

Nice bracket @iamtiberius and @MontCollector ! Super writeups and great coins! Really like the fly on the Cilicia and the Elagabalus is first rate!

I really have only one silver from Cilicia, and it is a tiny bugger:

CILICIA Uncertn Early-mid 4th C BCE AR Tetartemorion 5mm 0.17g Persian king running dagger and bow - Crowned hd Achaemenid king CNG E239 Troxell Kagan 4

And my Elagabalas is horn-less!

CILICIA Uncertn Early-mid 4th C BCE AR Tetartemorion 5mm 0.17g Persian king running dagger and bow - Crowned hd Achaemenid king CNG E239 Troxell Kagan 4

LOL, chosing the votes is going to be difficult!

 

It took a lot of playing around with light position to get just enough light to show detail, but not so much it washes out everything in glare. Photographing coins with refractive surfaces can be challenging at times.

 

IMO your photograph is close enough to what I would call excellent that what is left is more a matter of opinion than a right/wrong situation. I mention my opinions here not as corrections but as questions for thought or discussion. Every computer is just a little different and few of us have calibrated screens using some hard and fast standards. What looks better on my screen might not look better on yours and might really look bad on someone else's Mac or phone.

I always leave a lot more blank space around images than you did. This looks better to me than being cut right on the edges of the flan. You need not do what I do forcing images into a 3:2 proportions. I frequently have 4x6 prints made and using that proportion from the start makes it easier when I make prints at Costco whose defaults would crop into coins if I did not. I told you these things were minor and just opinions.

I took out a little contrast and lightened up your image just a little bit to make it look better on my laptop. Another problem is less than high end computer monitors (like my laptop) often change density according to the degree of tilt to your face. Tall people have to point the screen up a bit more than I do. I don't see any way we can correct this but you might make my photos look better to you with a little change in screen tilt. I notice this change a lot less on larger monitors. I also notice minor differences on some browsers and other programs. I have mine set to give me what I want on paper prints made where I get prints made but the difference is really not all that much (which means my wife does not notice it).

Agree. It is great to see so many people here on CT caring enough about their photographs that we get to see pretty glamour coins rather than fuzzy driver's license quality ID shots. It does not come easily without practice. I keep telling myself that I should stop buying coins that I know will be hard to photograph (but I don't listen).

 

They keep on getting harder.

Erin

 

Thanks. I agree 100%. The difference in monitors is a discussion we had on another forum a couple years ago.

Your changes made it look much better on my laptop as well. Thanks again.

I was already into photography before I started collecting coins. Mostly nature shots with a cheap digital point and shoot camera. Coins opened me up into the world of close-up macro photography under controlled lighting.This has been an ongoing learning process for me and I find it as enjoyable as researching and buying the coins in the first place.

Believe it or not I shoot photos like these and still have no idea what most of the settings do on my Canon T3. I just make changes and if they work great if they don't I try another setting.

All I ever do in post editing is cropping and the occasional white balance check.

 

Super tough matchup! I could have gone either way in all three categories and did so in my mind several times before actually voting. Both are really great coins with excellent writeups!

 

I don't know what to do...

 

Tricky tricky...

No Cilician coins in my collection but I do have a horned Elagabalus



Although no where near as nice let alone as well photographed as the coin doing battle here today!

With “that” now in mind I will never look at this coin the same way again (although frankly I’m not surprised, he certainly was an odd one).

 

Well, what a hard decision – I will have to think about this. Apart from that and more importantly, I wanted to thank both participants for their excellent and informative write-ups. I definitely learn quite something following this competition!

The only thing I can contribute myself is this extremely humble little bronze coin from Soloi. It is rather worn, yet I find it nonetheless fascinating, in particular since it was minted during the turbulous decades preceding the wholesale destruction of the city by Tigranes II. in 83 BC.



Cilicia, Soloi, AE18, ca. 164–83 BC. Obverse: head of Demeter wearing stephane. Reverse: cornucopia left, illegible monograms to left, legend [Σ]ΟΛΕ[ΩΝ] to right. see SNG Levante 865, see SNG France 1209.