Etiquette: questioning and/or "averaging" grades?

No, it is the responsibility of the quoter to ensure the quote is not taken out of context. If someone picks and chooses to quote only a sentence or part of a sentence out of context, then it IS reprehensible. One should not have to try to construct a thought making sure every word, taken out of context, could not be twisted and perverted. We are not politicians.

 

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Um, maybe because he has done it longer than many of them, and he does not have his pay and stock options tied to what grade he assigns or what major client he pleases?

 

Fair enough Paul. I was only trying to clarify what you were saying. As for your "test", why don't you post one? I have rarely seen an undergraded coin in a slab myself, but promise I would try to be fair in my grades. You are right its easy to throw stones at anyone, and in one way I do support what the TPG's are trying to do, but not the way they are doing it. I am talking about the infamous AU62's, giving MS grades to circulated coins. They should just abandon the idea that a 60-70 has to be uncirculated, and grade a coin based upon level of detail remaining. They are in a way doing this, but are lying in doing so. They should just be upfront and say the choice to make wear a much worst type of damage that any other was a wrong decision, and refuse to follow it anymore.

 

Heck, I haven't seen you in many of our conversations with Doug, Paul, MorganDude and I regarding grading either sir. I haven't been around here forever, but I have had major "friendly conversations" over this topic over the years as well, and do not remember you involved in them. I do not see how this prohibits any member, who may have just read the conversations and followed the arguments, from having their own opinion.

 

Not really sure where this rant was going. Are dealers biased in grading their coins? Yeah, some are unethically biased. How do you protect yourself? Learning to grade and learning to identify problem coins. I know, is HARD, its not given to you on a silver platter with no work so its really not worth the effort, huh?

Yeah, my opinion, as someone who has absolutely no financial stake or desire for the coin, is just horribly biased, right?

 

I happen to disagree with what your saying. The tpgs aren't the "standard" and disagreeing with them isn't fighting change and kicking and screaming. The VAST majority of world collectors don't use the TPGs. Take a look at the catalogs of the major auction firms in Asia and Europe and tell me how many graded coins you see. Just because the US market has taken a liking to the tpg's standards doesn't mean that's the new standard. Murica lovin Jefferson and Judd collectors aren't the world nor they do establish the "standard."

Oh and next time try to articulate your thoughts in a shorter matter. No one wants to read 6 of your consecutive posts.

 

Heck, I agree with you, see my earlier comment...

Do you see a reason for undermining level of intelligence or resorting to troll accusations in the exchange of our opinions? Don't forget, I did not jump out first with these opinions. I know my place on the ladder of seniority here on CT, but, when I see honest and accurate opinions from members who have the experience and longevity here on CT, I will happily agree with them if I like and respect what they are saying. Look objectively at fred13's comments, decipher them for me and if you feel like sticking up for them, please explain why. I read them, I know their purpose. I'm not upset, but, I will respond to nonsense.

 

So then why does it come to a surprise to you that the coins you send in to be graded always come back as you expect or very close to?

 

When English becomes your third language feel free to use an error in my grammar to undermine the meaning of my argument you filthy animal

 

Here we go with excuses...

Third language, eh? Maybe that explains why it is just easier for you to agree within certain topics.

Perhaps you should figure out a different approach when you decide to chat with me, other than intelligence and trolling as a jump start, that is.

For the record, I usually don't care about grammar mistakes. Don't be so petty in your approach to these forum conversations and don't take them so personally.

 

Nice to see you have a good sense of humor about it. If you want, I can put my future comments on hold, until you've had a chance to drive to the corner store and back.

 

You clearly grouped the names of participants worthy of a first hand opinion in this thread. Funny how 2 out of the 3 names you mention seem to hit the nail on the head with their opinions. Coincidence? Perception? Would you call either one of them a liar? I've engaged in enough threads to understand what they are referring to. Don't forget about the different flavors of ice cream for different folks.

 

Doug has not graded more coins than the TPGs, that is ridiculous and the TPGs don't change their standards to satisfy high volume submitters. In fact, Laura Sperber from Legend Numismatics routinely complains about PCGS grades in her updates.

I have posted more guess the grade threads on this forum than any other member. The examples you seek are already here. Here is a quick link to a few that surprised me.

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/guess-the-assigned-grade-1939-d-mercury-dime-ngc.239138/

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/gu...e-1924-standing-liberty-quarter-bonus.219167/

and this is the only coin that I was pleasantly surprised:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/guess-the-assigned-grade-ngc-1945-d-jefferson-nickel.246199/

My point is that it is very easy to pick on the coins that the TPGs overgrade. We find them, we post them, and then we crucify the TPGs for their incompetence. What we don't see are all of the accurately graded or undergraded coins certified by the TPGs. Why? Because the undergraded coins get resubmitted and the accurately graded coins are not interesting enough to discuss unless they have some other unusual feature unrelated to grade. I don't know anybody who submits coins to the TPGs who thinks they routinely overgrade their coins. Most believe that the TPGs are conservative in their grading. Now you can chalk that up to the old maxim that ownership adds a point to the grade of a coin if you want, but please keep in mind that many of these people are professional coin dealers and have good grading skills. It just seems to me that most of the people who criticize the TPGs the most don't even use their service.

 

Um it was a specific response to the below quote I kinda though that was self explanatory.

I'm trying to explain why a collector, like me, needs a tpg's opinion. To protect themselves. Then I explain why.

My response had nothing to do with ethics. I am explaining definitions and trying to put into context the idea of bias. This is not an "anti-dealer" statement. It is referring to the very concept of bias. If you are a human and money is involved you will be biased. This is a definition not an argument. What I'm saying is anyone selling a coin, collector dealer has a bias because of the financial outcome. Anyone selling anything also fits this definition. With grading you have such a large value riding on a subjective art, it became such a huge problem that it created a market need which was filled by tpg's.

A statement about "unethical bias" shows a lack of understanding about the concept of bias. It is not wrong or evil to have bias. It is human to have a bias. Everyone has a bias created from past experiences even when they don't have a financial stake there usually is a emotional one from those said past experiences. People us the word bias all the time in a negative context when they don't really just understand the very concept. It is human to have a bias.

Further I was also explaining that even the tpg's have bias, which is frequently referred to by people saying it is the submitter that creates the grade. Something repeated countless times.

That's ok though. If you don't get it just take some shots. I know how this works with some posters.

 

I totally agree that what I was saying applies only to the us market.
However the us market is completely controlled by the tpg's for any coin of serious value.

Then ignore me. Just click a button.

 

this behavior is seen everywhere when someone has a bad personal experience with any system that does its job properly the vast majority of the time.

If the tpg's were so useless in the us market (happy Fred?) and all the people complaining were right the tpg's would not be everywhere. Not some not much but everywhere. Let me know how far back you have to on a ha or other major auction catalog to see more then just a small minority of coins raw. I'd actually like to know this.

 

I don't see a reason to debate over and over again, one of two repetitive options for most coins with the same individual. What can you say to someone that sees most coins as either AU or Harshly Cleaned?

Which 1915 S $5 Matches Which Slab?

Guess the grade: GOLD

Guess The Grade $10 Libs

Guess The Grade 1924 St. Gaudens

1911 D $2.5 Indian Test

The only thing I can gather from the above examples is, either @GDJMSP is always sitting on the fence with his conservative and inaccurate grades, or @LostDutchman is always peddling overgraded coins. Which is it?

 

The thing is... Doug is what we call an "old school" grader. I'm guessing he cut his teeth 30-50 years ago. This was before TPGs and in those days there were only something like 6-7 grades... Total... AU, UNC, BU. The grading services came along and changed everything. Some people assimilated and some people just stuck with what they knew. I appreciate his older style viewpoint but the fact is that it doesn't jive with what the standards are accepted as today.

 

Please stop backing up your arguments with evidence. Someone just might commit the crime of agreeing with you.