Featured Doppelter Hochzeitstaler – Double Wedding Thaler

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Chris B, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    Gaedechens 1600; KM 147 (3 Thaler)
    Struck ca. 1650​


    Obverse: A elegantly dressed bride and groom shake hands; hovering above it in a glory is the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove and the name Jehovah. Transcription; QUOS DEUS CONIUNXIT HOMO NON SEPARET. Man should not divide what God put together.

    Reverse: The wedding to Cana, in a smaller format, just like on No. 3, only with the difference that the groom wears a feather hat here. Transcription: JESUS CHRIST. MAKE WATER WINE IN CANA. GAL. 10. 11. The Munzmeister mark with the two cross-shaped zain hooks.

    Diameter: 60mm
    Weight: 57.42 g

    Here is another one of those items that I didn’t know I wanted until I saw one. For multiple Thalers, you could almost call this common. Of course, none of these are.

    The Marriage at Cana:

    The transformation of water into wine at the Marriage at Cana or Wedding at Cana is the first miracle attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of John. In the Gospel account, Jesus, his mother, and his disciples are invited to a wedding, and when the wine runs out, Jesus delivers a sign of his glory by turning water into wine.

    The location of Cana has been subject to debate among biblical scholars and archaeologists. Multiple villages in Galilee are possible candidates.

    John 2:1-11 states that while Jesus was at a wedding in Cana with his disciples, the party ran out of wine during the Seudat Nissuin. Jesus' mother told Jesus, "They have no wine," and Jesus replied, "Oh Woman, what has this to do with me? My hour has not yet come." His mother then said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you". Jesus ordered the servants to fill containers with water and to draw out some and take it to the chief steward. After tasting it, without knowing where it came from, the steward remarked to the bridegroom that he had departed from the custom of serving the best wine first by serving it last. John adds: "Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee, and it revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him".

    If you want some fun and aren’t easily offended do a google search of this event and the varying viewpoints of its meaning. One of the chat boards I came across makes the sometimes-spirited discussions on CT seem pretty tame.

    14th-century Marriage at Cana by Giotto di Bondone​

    Otto Christian Gaedechens was an 18th-century collector who wrote a series of 3 books on the coins and medals of Hamburg. Until about October of 2019 I wasn’t aware of these books. That is until I purchased the below coin. I found attributions online that said it was a G#1586. I had no idea what that was until receiving some assistance from my CT friends. If you are into German States coinage, especially those from Hamburg, it is well worth the investment to purchase these books. I splurged and bought a nice leather-bound reprint. The originals are very scarce.



    Thanks to @wcg and @Zohar444 for their help in steering me down that path.

    From Gaedechens:

    Auch diesen Thaler besitzet Herr Bartels und haben wir ersteren 2 Loth schwerbefundeu. Herr Bartels hesitzt uberdem noch einen zweiten ahnlicheu, 2 Loth schwereu einfsachen Thaler, auf dem man auf dem Averse zwischen den heiden Brautleuten die Gestalt des Heilandes erblickt, der das Paar einsegnet. Ueber ihm in einer Glorie der Name Gottes. Die unten links aufangende Umschrist lautet: QUOS DEUS CONIUNXIT HOMO NON SEPARET; vor HOMO die beiden krezweis liegenden Zainhaken, jedoch ohne Kleeblatt. Auf der anderen Seite die Hochzeit, die Mutter Maria sitzet zwischen Braut and Brautigam; rechts im Hintergrunde noch einige undeutlich ausgedruckte Personen. Umschrift: JESUS CHRISTUS MACHET WASSER ZU GUDEM WEINN. JOHA. Ein nicht zu erkennendes Zeichen.

    Google translation:
    Mr. Bartels also owns this thaler and we found the first two lots difficult. Herr Bartels also sits a second similar thaler, 2 loth heavy, in which one can see the figure of the Savior on the avenue between the pagan bride and groom, who blesses the couple. Above him in a glory the name of God. The outline at the bottom left is: QUOS DEUS CONIUNXIT HOMO NON SEPARET; in front of HOMO the two zain hooks lying in front of each other, but without cloverleaf. On the other hand, the wedding, the mother Maria sits between the bride and groom; on the right in the background a few unclearly printed people. Transcription: JESUS CHRIST MAKES WATER GOOD WINE. JOHA. An unrecognizable sign.

    Gaedechens.jpg Gaedechens 01.jpg

    As much as I like the Gaedechens books they are a little disappointing to me when it comes to the historical background of the designs. As you can see above, the text is pretty much talking about who else has one in their collection and description. I have only done translations on the coins that I own so that may not be consistent throughout the books.

    I would like to hear other opinions on the purpose of this piece. As I mentioned earlier it is one of the more common varieties of multiple Thalers. The logical assumption, to me, is that these were used as wedding gifts. These would have been limited to only marriages in the wealthiest families because this would have represented a significant amount of money.

    It is interesting to me that Krause calls this a 3 Thaler but all auction listings I found call it a double Thaler.

    So, share any thoughts or corrections. And of course please share any related coins.
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  3. Gallienus

    Gallienus coinsandhistory.com

    Well the weight of 57.42 grams is consistant with a double taler as talers of the 1650's often were in the 28 gram range. Some cities and regions struck talers of lesser weight but I don't know if any would be struck to a 19.14 gram standard: at least before WWI!
    {That was a joke based on the 19.14 weight}.

    Nonetheless multiple talers tend to be quite sought after and hugely expensive, so a very nice coin. I have no true multiple talers and am unlikely to get one as all my want lists {in that collecting area} are for specialty single talers. I'm not even a taler collector but I do have a few; mostly from Poland. That country I collect all the way up until the 20th century.

    Here's talerman's weight listing on CT:
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  4. doppeltaler

    doppeltaler Well-Known Member

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  5. Mkman123

    Mkman123 Well-Known Member

    whoa this double thaler or 3 thaler is very cool!!!
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  6. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    Nice piece ! Looks like you scanned the text for translation ? Still, the automated translation is not that bad. I was a bit surprized by the translation "between the pagan bride and groom". It seems more likely that the original German reads "zwischen den beiden Brautsleuten", and not "heiden".
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  7. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    I do, it came from this week's CNG auction. Well, I should say, it is coming. The piece from the earlier thread was one I picked up at a small coin show here in Indiana.

    Actually I couldn't find a program that would scan a whole page and translate. I did this the hard way and typed it into Google. If there are any errors it could be a typo on my part.
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  8. PaulTudor

    PaulTudor Well-Known Member

    I had this one but sold it 3 years ago, a cast medal in the weight of a double Taler, from 17 century, bought from Kunker.

    93D88081-DA23-4782-83B4-B34822813CF0.jpeg 8979F3B5-2665-42A2-A835-A019A51042DF.jpeg
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  9. ycon

    ycon Renaissance Man

    Google translate will do this if you do it from the app on your phone. You press the camera icon and it will scan the text... Also useful for menus if you're traveling abroad.
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  10. doppeltaler

    doppeltaler Well-Known Member

    Congratulations, both very nice coins. I am surprised about the weight of 57.2 g for 3 talers, I was expecting it to be around 75g range. I am pleasantly surprised you were able to get one from a local coins show. I used to live in Southbend/Indy 15 years ago but that was before I started collecting coins.
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  11. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    I kind of had my mind blown today. If you use a scanner to scan a page in another language and then drop it into Google docs it automatically converts it to a word text. That can be copied and pasted to Google translate. No more typing it all in for me.

    I had tried it your way in the past without complete success.
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  12. talerman

    talerman Well-Known Member

    57.2 g in the 17th century
    is definitely 2 Talers, not 3.
    This note from the Landesmuseum Württemberg confirms your assumption that these were wedding gifts:
    Hamburger Hochzeitstaler mit Darstellung der Hochzeit zu ...

    Hamburg wedding thaler depicting the wedding at Cana, early 17th century
    Provenance / Rights: Landesmuseum Württemberg, Stuttgart (CC BY-SA)

    The "Hamburg Wedding Talers" are among the earliest marriage and love medals. Manufactured for the first time at the end of the 16th century, they were very popular as gifts for weddings, which should bring happiness to the bride and groom .
    The thaler shows on the front the wedding to Cana: Christ is about to trust the bride and groom . The inscription DA PACEM DOMI (e) TO (bus) Nostris - Da Pacem Domine, Lord, to our men times, a hymn of Martin Luther from the stems year 1529. On the back is the Hamburg city arms to see, along with the inscription QUOS DEVS CONIUNXIT HOMO NON SEPARET - Who Godconnected, man should not divorce.
    These thalers were given away as weddings for good luck .
    [Lilian Groß]


    Material / Technique

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