Featured Hamburg 1635-68 Double Thaler

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Chris B, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    Looking for some assistance from the great folks on CT. At last week's Evansville, Indiana coin show I made a significant purchase, for me. Below is a Hamburg double Thaler from the 1600s. I collect German States pretty heavily. My main focus, as many of you know, has been wildman coins. German States coins, in general, have fascinated me for a long time.

    In some ways, I kind of took a leap with this purchase. I have wanted a multiple thaler but hadn't found the right one until now. It is lovely in hand, and of course, is an impressive hunk of silver. It is currently in a PCGS holder, graded AU55.

    Here is where I am looking for assistance. The PCGS label says "The Annunciation" which by what I find is KM#206. The obverse matches the description but not the reverse. The reverse matches KM#205. While it's possible this is a mule I think it is more likely that this is a variety unlisted in Krause. I have not found any matches after a pretty thorough search.

    Does anyone know what the G#1586 is a reference to? I was hoping to find this reference book for some further research.

    Below are a description and photos.

    Obverse: The Annunciation

    Reverse: Christ standing facing in the river Jordan, head lowered right, being anointed by St.John the Baptist to right; above, radiate and nimbate dove below name of God in Hebrew.
    Reverse Legend: CHRIST : D : HEILG : TAUFNIM : AN : V : SEIM : VORLAUFFER : I : IORD :,

    Note: Ref. G#1586. Prev. KM#F85.

    Mintmaster: Matthias Freude

    Composition: Silver
    Diameter: 59mm


    (1635-1668) 2 Thaler, (referred to as a Double Show Thaler or Tauftaler)

    Annunciation, also called Annunciation to the Blessed Virgin Mary or Annunciation of the Lord, in Christianity, the announcement by the angel Gabriel to the Virgin Mary that she would conceive a son by the power of the Holy Spirit to be called Jesus (Luke 1:26–38). The angel’s pronouncement is met with Mary’s willing consent (“Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word”), and thus precipitates the Incarnation of Christ and his redemption of the world.

    The obverse has a Latin legend that I believe means "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women" and the legend on the reverse may be German and might mean "Christ receiving his baptism from the leader in the Jordan"
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest

    to hide this ad.
  3. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    Beautiful coin. I do not believe the reverse matches KM205, https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide...aler-km-205-1635-68-cuid-1166443-duid-1360439

    Your translation of the German seems accurate, but I struggle with the older German. Vorlaufer really means "predecessors", but I think it fits.

    I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar with the "G" catalog, I focus mainly on Davenport's efforts. @chrisild any idea about the "G#" catalogs?

    Edit: I have a "Standard Price Guide to World Crowns & Talers 1484-1968 2nd Ed." that I'll have access to in a couple months. If you don't get the answer by then, message me and I'll see if it references that catalog effort in its intro pages.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
    Chris B likes this.
  4. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    Unfortunately it is not listed in Davenport, which is one of my go too’s.
    Seattlite86 likes this.
  5. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes? Supporter

    For taler questions, you need to ask @Zohar444

    If he doesn't know it, nobody will.
    Paul M., Chris B and Seattlite86 like this.
  6. wcg

    wcg Well-Known Member

    Awesome addition! Hamburg produced some real treasures during this time period. I see G 1586 refers to the Gaed reference, but I am not familiar with that one. Its amazing how many variations exist for the same G 1586 piece. I found 2 immediately that are each slightly different.

    I thought it might be similar to a piece in the Gerhard Hirsch Nachfolger auction 347 lot 4363, but the obverse die is slightly different:

    Fritz Kunker auction 184, lot 4472 :
    Chris B, Seattlite86 and longshot like this.
  7. Orielensis

    Orielensis Well-Known Member

    That's a beautiful coin. 1600s usually is a bit late for me, but this one is magnificent!

    The legend on the reverse is: "CHRIST DE HEILIGE TAUF NIMPT AN / V: SEINEM VORLAUFFER IM IORDAN;" and it translates into "Christ receives Holy Baptism / from his precursor in [the river] Jordan." Since John the Baptist, who is administering Christ's baptism in this scene, is usually regarded a precursor or forerunner of Christ, this makes a lot of sense here.

    The language is early modern German with dialectal traces of Low German (e.g. "de" instead of "die").

    Also note the Hebrew letters יהוה (YHWH), usually vocalized as "Jehovah," above the dove symbolizing the Holy Spirit on the reverse. Together with the dove and Christ, they are meant to represent the Trinity.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  8. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    Wow. The one you found in the Nachfolger auction is pretty darn close. Closer than anything I have found to this point.

    This time period has quickly become my favorite era to collect from. The biggest obstacle I have is finding English language references that are helpful. I may have to bite the bullet and create an account at acsearch. Up to this point I have been able to get away without having one.
  9. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    Thanks for the response. The 1600s has become my favorite era.
    Pellinore and Orielensis like this.
  10. wcg

    wcg Well-Known Member

    @Chris B - there are multiple tier accounts on acsearch. I have the free one to help with attributing pieces and getting a perspective on volume seen by auctions in general. I believe there is a monthly subscription for access to auction hammer prices.
    Chris B likes this.
  11. wcg

    wcg Well-Known Member

    It is interesting to note the number of die differences with your piece and the Nachfolger example. In their example, the hand is turned differently, the drapes are missing, the vase and flowers are different, and the angel's leg is visible. Reverse looks largely similar. They must have used several dies for the issue.

    I would be interested to hear if you turn up anything on Gaed reference. Perhaps he is a specialist in Hamburg issues similar to Snow being a specialist in US Indian Head & Flying Eagle upload_2019-10-10_8-35-13.png ents.
  12. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    I found an auction catalog in the ANA library that was put together by a William A. Gaede that I thought was promising despite the spelling difference. Especially since it was supposed to have world tokens, medals, and coins. The ANA librarian sent me a scan and it is a dead end.
  13. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    Just heard from David Sklow, ANA Library Director, and this is what he had to say:

    "I did a little research and I believe the Gaed numbers refer to Otto Christian Gaedechens who authored a three volume work [1843, 1854 & 1876] concerning Hamburg Talers. His books are rare and we don’t have them in the library. I did see the European Auction House Kunker uses Gaed numbers as well as Davenport numbers."

    So it doesn't look like I will be adding any of the originals of these to my library but will be on the hunt for them. Abe books offers some reprints that are cheap so I may order those.
  14. Paul M.

    Paul M. Well-Known Member

    I don't really have any info to add, but that's a great coin! Gotta love a big ol' 57g chonker of a coin, especially with the kind of detail this one has.
    Chris B likes this.
  15. Mkman123

    Mkman123 Well-Known Member

    what a beautiful and monster sized coin!!
    Chris B likes this.
  16. Zohar444

    Zohar444 Member

  17. Zohar444

    Zohar444 Member

  18. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Now thats a coin with a boat load of history. All coins should be like that one
    Chris B likes this.
  19. Robidoux Pass

    Robidoux Pass Active Member

    Wow! Great research by @Chris B, and others in the CoinTalk. What an interesting conversation to read about a very interesting coin.
    Chris B likes this.
  20. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    Thank you. I knew my fellow members could push me down the correct path. After the help from @wcg and @Zohar444 and the ANA I did pull the trigger and ordered all 3 reprints of the Otto Christian Gaedechens books. They are shipping out of India so I probably won't see them for a while.
    wcg and Seattlite86 like this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page