Featured Chinese vs Australian Bullion..WOW!

Discussion in 'Bullion Investing' started by Gam3rBlake, Dec 5, 2020.

  1. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Are all of your pandas 2015 dated sir? I wonder if they started skimping on metal that year because they were not declaring on the coin it was a full ounce. In 2016 is when they moved to 30 grams I believe, but 2015 yourself stated does not stated on the coin it is a full ounce.

    I wonder what 2014 and prior coins, stating a full ounce, weigh.
     
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  3. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    Yup! I bought 40 of them and they were all 2015 and in new condition.
     
  4. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    I think we would need more samples for testing, as well as different years.

    But it should be noted I’ve never ever found a national bullion coin to be underweight except for China’s Panda.
     
  5. Phil's Coins

    Phil's Coins Active Member

    I have a simple solution to the state backed defrauding being carried out by the Chinese, and furthered by those US companies that continue to sell there underweight coins as 1oz. DO NOT PURCHASE FROM EITHER OF THE COMPANIES.
     
  6. 1776

    1776 New Member

    I sure didn’t take you as being a braggart, in fact I found it interesting. Don’t worry about offending sensitive people they look for small things to be upset over.
     
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  7. JeffC

    JeffC Never buying coin tubes with pull-off caps again. Supporter

    I can help there.

    Your post stoked my interest! And made me worry a bit, especially since I have been collecting them since 2015. I get mine from Provident or JM Bullion. I've also bought older ones from the secondary market. Altogether I have 2006 to 2020. Of course, now I need to weigh them.

    When I read this before getting home, I sort of agree with @longshot. If this was an ongoing prevalent practice, it would have been numismatic news by now. That's why I was curious about mine and couldn't wait to weigh them. Here are the results:

    1 OZ. PANDAS
    2006: 31.23
    2007: 31.06
    2008: 30.97
    2009: 31.29
    2010: 31.20
    2011: 31.28
    2012: 31.18
    2013: 31.18
    2014: 31.06
    2015: 31.07 (Coincidentally - it's underweight - like all of yours!!!)

    30g PANDAS
    2016: 29.99
    2017: 30.05
    2018: 30.00 (on the nose!)
    2019: 30.04
    2020: 30.15

    Because all of yours were from 2015, it could've been a "bad batch." That's not to say that China does not have horrendous QA/QC processes. You may have touched on something though. I've often wondered why the weight and purity are not on the 2015 pandas. You might have stumbled upon the reason!!! It was a year of really bad quality control and they didn't want to represent it as 1 oz. I know you showed literature that it's supposed to be 1 troy ounce, but I'd be willing to bet that the literature did not originate from the Chinese mint.

    Anyway - I'm sort of relieved! I collect them cause I like the different annual Panda designs.

    20201211_211854.jpg
     
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  8. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the further data!

    I’m wondering if China switched from 1ozt to 30g pandas because they were having difficulty meeting the 1ozt standards.
     
  9. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Standards are standards, at either a Troy ounce or 30 grams. In Asia, 30 grams is a more normal weight really than an esoteric weight invented in Troyes, France in the middle ages.

    Face it, a silver panda is more collectible than bullion. Why not lower your costs a little if they can and reduce bullion in them? Their prices did not go down, so just pure profit for them.
     
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  10. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member


    That’s true but it also means that prior to announcing the switch to 30g they were straight up lying about pre-2016 pandas having 1ozt of silver.

    I think all nations bullion coins must at least meet LBMA standards.

    Most other nations overweigh their coins but China did the reverse.

    I also noticed your 2014 Panda is underweight too so this must’ve been going on at least a couple years.
     
    JeffC likes this.
  11. Idoono

    Idoono New Member

    I for onw am glad the OP started this thread. I purchased a couple of Panda's for my daughter-in-law (she loved Pandas) and upon weighing it I found the very same thing. And before you ask my scale is accurate and measures in grains and grains. I use the grains for my reloading and the grams for my coin collecting. My calibration weights were tested in the calibration lab of a nuclear power plant so I know they are accurate.

    Personally I try not to buy anything from China because words like quality control and honesty I do not believe are in the Chinese language.

    Anyone else remember when Walmart was an American store for American products?
     
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  12. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    Oh I just noticed the 2007 & 2008 are underweight too!
     
  13. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    Thanks for providing follow up data!

    I think based on what I’ve seen we can conclude that China has a regular tendency of producing underweight bullion that does not even meet LBMA (London Bullion Market Association) standards.

    If this was some small random Chinese Mint I could let it slide as poor quality control but this is the freakin’ Chinese government. I’m sure they keep very close watch on their silver & gold supplies and can’t help but notice that for every 997 ozt of silver provided the Chinese Mint is pumping out
    1000x “1 ozt” pandas. Whereas other countries like the US, UK, Canada, Australia etc., end up using like 1013ozt to make 1000x Silver Eagles, Britannias, Maple Leaves, Kookaburras etc.,

    To me that’s fraud. Flat out. Advertising something as 1ozt when it consistently misses that mark by not an insignificant amount.

    If anyone has evidence of gold pandas that’s what I’m really curious about. If they’re cutting corners on those they are seriously ripping people off. Heck 1/2 gram is like $30 of missing gold per coin.

    I’m very glad people are taking interest in this topic. I didn’t think too many people would be interested but it’s great to see people are.
     
  14. JeffC

    JeffC Never buying coin tubes with pull-off caps again. Supporter

    Yeap, 25% of mine were under.
     
  15. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member


    I noticed you seem to have a large collection of pandas.

    Do you happen to have any of the gold pandas?

    Like this one straight up says
    “1 oz AU .999” so if it weighs anything less it means they’re lying on both silver & gold pandas. People who bought gold pandas would have far more reason to be angry than us who bought silver ones.

    F73E2A93-8A1A-4BF8-949C-F345DCCA67F9.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2020
  16. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    Update:

    I was looking on Wikipedia for the specifications of the Silver Panda and look what I stumbled upon!

    Apparently the 1 troy ounce and 30g Silver Pandas have the exact same specifications!

    How on Earth can you have 2 silver coins of the same purity of silver with the exact same dimensions yet one weighs more than the other??

    This seems to me like China was always making underweight coins on purpose and only in 2015 did they admit it.

    876F9F3B-EA12-4B2B-B70C-1CC5CF6D72AF.jpeg
     
  17. Idoono

    Idoono New Member

    U actually noticed that late last night also and have the same question. Same diameter, same thickness, but different weight. I would like to see the results using a Sigma or other such instrument.
     
  18. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the Sigma turned up results showing like .985 fine rather than the .999 being advertised.

    China is one of those countries that will do anything to save a buck. If it means being deceptive or dishonest they will do it if they feel the profit outweighs the potential losses.

    They probably know that some people will notice the pandas being underweight but in the long run they are saving millions of dollars in the silver that they would’ve had to buy to make the coins the correct advertised weight & purity.
     
  19. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    You can’t blame the US companies.

    If they are being told that the coins are 1 troy ounce by the Chinese Government it’s only logical that they’re going to assume they are the weight they were told.

    I mean if the US Mint released a coin and said it was 1 troy oz of silver that’s how it would be advertised by the companies. Because they’re being told this by an actual government agency. Not just some small time bullion refiner.
     
  20. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    [​IMG]

    I believe this was from October, 1989.

    I have no great respect for Chinese business practices. But as long as US consumers will keep picking the $12 jeans over the $20 jeans regardless of quality, and as long as companies the size of Walmart keep turning the screws on suppliers to lower their prices, someone is going to find new corners to cut.
     
  21. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    Sadly alot of companies that are USA owned & operated don’t label themselves as such so the common consumer doesn’t know where the stuff they buy comes from.

    For example: They might buy an iPhone thinking they are supporting the American business Apple. Which they are. But they’re also heavily supporting Chinese manufacturers who assembled iPhones for Apple.

    I know right now ranchers in particular are really pushing on the government to pass a law that only allows US raised & slaughtered livestock to be labelled as “Product of the USA”. Apparently a lot of other countries send meat over here and then it’s processed in the US and labeled as “product of the USA” even though the cows never lived a day of their lives on US soil.
     
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