What is the significance of a countermark like this?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Xodus, Jan 28, 2020.

  1. Xodus

    Xodus Well-Known Member

    At 26mm - Syria, Seleucis and Pieria. Antiochia ad Orontem. Domitian. A.D. 81-96. AE 14 Struck A.D. 81-83. IMP DOMITIANVS CAES AVG, laureate head right / S·C within laurel wreath. RPC 2021

    It looks to be what I "think" is an Athena countermark on the observe. I'm just wondering if anyone can shed any light on why someone would do this. Ie, was there a battle won and this was to signify it? Thanks for the help!

    IMG_20200126_092031966-ccfopt.jpg IMG_20200126_092052755-ccfopt.jpg
     
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  3. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing

    Countermarks were usually introduced to (re)validate coinage, thereby making or ensuring a coin of its value through the power of the ruler of the empire (or senate or overseer of the area) at the time.

    Here is a excerpt from a short article/page from CNG:
    "Beside the obvious necessity of re-validated worn, obsolete or unusual coins for circulation in areas where regular coinage was scarce, there are clear cases where changing political realities were expressed by making revisions to the circulating coinage. Such cases are the numerous varieties of countermarks applied during the tumultuous reign of Nero and subsequent civil unrest. And again, in the Severan period, the struggles for legitimacy among the various family members and usurpers saw a wide array of politically motivated re-validations." ​

    You are correct that it is of Athena (Minerva) facing right with shield and spear: Howgego 245.

    Edit: another great resource to learn more about c/m's: https://www.accla.org/actaaccla/Baker1984.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  4. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Nice countermark! A very handsome specimen. I found two of these on FORVM, with some comments, though no reason for the issue:

    http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=546&pos=60

    http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=546&pos=59

    There are a bunch of these on acsearch - you might find some info there (as Justin notes, it is Howgego 245). Several CT members have copies of Howgego, I believe - they might be able to provide more info.

    https://www.acsearch.info/search.ht...s=1&thesaurus=1&order=0&currency=usd&company=
     
  5. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing

    This is a countermark that I have a specific affinity for, as I'm infatuated with simple and elegant presentations of Minerva. This one is thought to have been introduced by Domitian because of his equal affinity for Minerva, and the timing of coins with this countermark. I currently have 4 examples:

    [​IMG]
    Otho, Ruled Jan 15-Apr 16, 69 AD
    AE26, Syria, Antioch Mint

    Was Poppaea Sabina’s initial husband, but she had an affair with Nero and eventually left him for Nero while Nero was Emperor.
    Obverse: CAE AVG IMP M OTHO, laureate head right; countermark – Athena standing right within rectangular incuse.
    Reverse: Large SC within laurel wreath of eight leaves, fastened at top with pellet, between inner circle and outer dotted border.
    References: RPC 4318; countermark – Howgego 245
    Size: 26mm, 11.1g
    Ex: Savoca Coin Auction, 4th Blue, Lot #930 (12-27-2017)


    [​IMG]
    Domitian, 81-96 AD
    AE22, Syria, Antioch Mint

    Obverse: IMP DOMITIANVS CAES AVG, laureate head to left; countermark of Athena/Minerva standing right, holding spear and shield, in rectangular punch (Howgego 245).
    Reverse: Large SC surrounded by laurel wreath of eight leaves.
    References: McAlee 409, RPC 2023
    Size: 22mm, 6.3g


    [​IMG]
    Domitian, 81-96 AD
    AE22, Syria, Antioch Mint

    Obverse: IMP DOMITIANVS CAES AVG, laureate head to left; countermark of Athena/Minerva standing right, holding spear and shield, in rectangular punch (Howgego 245).
    Reverse: Large SC surrounded by laurel wreath of eight leaves.
    References: McAlee 409, RPC 2023
    Size: 20mm, 6.1g


    [​IMG]
    Claudius, Ruled 41-54 AD
    AE25, Syria, Antioch Mint

    Obverse: [IM•TI•CLA•CAE-AV•GER], laureate head right; countermark of Athena/Minerva standing right, holding spear and shield, in rectangular punch (Howgego 245).
    Reverse: Large S-C within inner solid boarder, laurel wreath surround, fastened with pellet at top.
    Reference: RPC 4279, McAlee 250a
    Size: 25mm, 14.1g
     
  6. Xodus

    Xodus Well-Known Member

    Wow, thank you guys so much! Also, Very cool collection of countermarks @Justin Lee!

    After clicking on that link to the forum post, I read this: "May be an imperial countermark due to Domitian's association with Athena/Minerva, likely applied between A.D. 83-96 in Antioch". That's interesting :)
     
  7. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing

    It's odd that this Trajan has the countermark... o_O That is so late for the dating of the countermark. Could the stamp used to make the mark been lingering in someone's possession and this was a one-off by someone who had the mark NOT at the officina? Or it could be imitation?

    [Pause post for a few minutes while I go look up Howgego 246...] :bookworm::bookworm::bookworm:

    Ok, it seems this is in fact a different c/m than the 245 (hence the different number, duh lol :hilarious:) and is used on specific Trajan coins from Gabala in 106/107 AD. Nevermind...
     
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  8. benhur767

    benhur767 Sapere aude

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  9. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    I am reviving this thread because I finally got one of these Minerva Standing countermarks for Domitian. This is one I've been hankering for! This one is on a smaller-sized SC issue for Vespasian.

    Thanks to TIF for providing the full Howgego citation on this other thread:
    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/help-on-ancient-countermark.337065/

    For a countermark issue, this has a pretty nice host, at least by my standards:

    CM - Antioch Minerva Domit on Vesp SC Nov 2020 (0).jpg

    Vespasian/Domitian Æ 20
    (c. 69-79 A.D. / cm 83-96 A.D.)
    Syria, Seleucis & Pieria
    Antiochia ad Orontem

    [IMP CA]ESAR VESP[ASIAN AVG], laureate head left /SC within laurel wreath.
    RPC II, 2011; BMC 218;McAlee 43; Wruck 97.
    (8.17 grams / 20 x 18 mm)

    Countermark Notes:
    Athena/Minerva in 6 x 4 mm rectangle, Howgego 245 (9 pcs. for Vespasian)

    "The connection of Minerva with Domitian suggests that this is an Imperial countermark. There can be little doubt that it was applied at Antioch between 83 and 96 A.D. It did not have a denominational significance because it occurs on both denominations of the SC series" Howgego

    At first I thought my host coin was a die-match for an example sold by CNG, but I don't think so now - but perhaps the same artist was at work?

    CM - Antioch Minerva Domit on Vesp SC Nov 2020 Comp.jpg
    https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=388341
     
  10. tenbobbit

    tenbobbit Well-Known Member

    Turn your coin slightly so the V of Vespasian is before 12 & i think it matches up ok @Marsyas Mike.
     
  11. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    So an obverse die match? Now that I look over it again, I think you are right - thank you for noticing!

    Originally I thought the reverse matched too - the Big-S small-C being so distinctive. But the letters are considerably thicker on mine and the leaves don't line up.
     
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  12. tenbobbit

    tenbobbit Well-Known Member

    Pretty sure the Reverse is too, everything including the leaves lines up.
    Using the little dots as markers they match up very well, maybe just a different stage in the life of the die or the CNG example is lit in a way that makes the SC look thinner.
    We need someone like @TIF to do an overlay just to see if it lines up.
    A skill i am lacking :(
     
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  13. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Again I revive this thread because I got another Minerva countermark on an Antioch SC host coin. The countermark was applied for Domitian it is believed, what with Minerva being his favorite deity.

    This is one of those coins only a countermark collector can love. The host coin is worn almost slick, but has a glossy black patina with some "desert" highlights that help its appearance some. It was, I think, issued by Claudius. Although almost nothing is left of either side through wear, there is a prominent low pellet or dot below the reverse SC. This was featured on Claudius SC issues and the portrait conforms to some I saw online.

    CM - Antioch Claudius SC cm Minerva Apr 2021 (0a2).jpg

    Although the host is lousy, it has a pretty nice countermark:

    CM - Antioch Claudius SC cm Minerva Apr 2021 (0det2a).jpg
    Claudius/Domitian Æ 22
    (c. 41-54 A.D. / cm 83-96 A.D.)
    Syria, Seleucis & Pieria Antiochia ad Orontem

    [IM•TI•CLA•CAE-AV•GER], laureate head right / Large S-C, pellet between, positioned low, laurel wreath around [pellet top].
    RPC 4279; McAlee 250a.
    (11.30 grams / 22 mm)
    Countermark: Athena/Minerva in 6 x 4 mm rectangle, Howgego 245.

    "The connection of Minerva with Domitian suggests that this is an Imperial countermark. There can be little doubt that it was applied at Antioch between 83 and 96 A.D. It did not have a denominational significance because it occurs on both denominations of the SC series" Howgego​

    @Justin Lee has a nicer example of this countermark on the same host coin (note the low reverse pellet). It was originally posted here:

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ro...peror-by-emperor-pile-on-thread.339280/page-2

    [​IMG]
    Claudius, Ruled 41-54 AD
    AE25, Syria, Antioch Mint
    Obverse
    : [IM•TI•CLA•CAE-AV•GER], laureate head right; countermark of Athena/Minerva standing right, holding spear and shield, in rectangular punch (Howgego 245). Believed to be c\m'd in reign of Domitian due to his love of Minerva.
    Reverse: Large S-C within inner solid boarder, laurel wreath surround, fastened with pellet at top.
    Reference: RPC 4279, McAlee 250a
    Size: 25mm, 14.1g​
     

    Attached Files:

  14. 7Calbrey

    7Calbrey Well-Known Member

    The obverse of this coin under Elagabalus has Phoenician god Melkart as counter mark. Reverse shows Astarte being crowned. Lindgren 2376. TYRE.

    Elag Melkr O  Lindgren2376.JPG Elag M Tyre R  Astarte.JPG
     
  15. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus

    Wow there are some great coins here and that is not just because most of them feature Domitian.:angelic:

    Honestly, I would love to have a Domitian coin with that countermark. Very cool.
     
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  16. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Keep your eyes peeled, Orfew! I'm sure you can track one down.

    As far as I can tell, this Minerva countermark for Antioch is fairly common - I pulled up seven from acsearch when researching this; I'm sure there are more floating around. Howgego records 139 pieces:

    http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=546&pos=68
     
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  17. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Digging up this thread because I got another Minerva countermark for Antioch by Domitian. This one is on a Titus host, which appears to be scarce; at least I was unable to find another one. RPC has (63) examples of this countermark on hosts from Claudius to Domitian, but none on a Titus. Wildwinds, acsearch, etc. didn't turn up any either.

    This is the first of the "large" SC types that I have with this countermark; the other two posted above are the small types (as and semis?).

    Here it is:

    CM - Antioch Titus SC Jun 2022 (0a4).jpg
    Titus / Domitian Æ 28
    (c. 79-81 A.D. / cm 83-96 A.D.)
    Syria, Seleucis & Pieria Antiochia ad Orontem

    T CAESAR IMP PON[T] (first T faint, located at 6 o'clock), laureate head right / Large S•C, laurel wreath around, pellet top.
    RPC II 2014; McAlee 384(b/c?); BMC 235; Wruck 102.
    (13.63 grams / 28 x 27 mm)
    eBay June 2022
    Countermark: Athena/Minerva in 6 x 4 mm rectangle, Howgego 245; RPC 368. (none on Titus in RPC from (63) examples).
    "The connection of Minerva with Domitian suggests that this is an Imperial countermark. There can be little doubt that it was applied at Antioch between 83 and 96 A.D. It did not have a denominational significance because it occurs on
    both denominations of the SC series" Howgego
    Scarcity: RPC has (63) examples of Countermark 368, all for Antioch SC issues, but none on a Titus host coin.

    Mine appears to have an obverse die-match to one of the RPC examples:

    CM - Antioch Titus SC Jun 2022 (0 die match RPC).jpg
    Die-Match:
    Obverse die appears to match this
    specimen from RPC: Coin no. 5 of RPC II 2014; Bibliothèque nationale de France,
    Paris (France) Inventory No. 1973/99

    For anybody interested in these countermarks, since the last time I posted one of these, I finally figured out how to negotiate RPC's countermark database. Here are three pages worth of the Athena/Minerva type in this thread (RPC says it is Athena; a search for Minerva brings up nothing - the RPC database is touchy this way): https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/countermark/368
     
  18. GinoLR

    GinoLR Well-Known Member

    I wonder what can be this Antioch Trajanic countermark...

    ant_trajan.jpg
    ant_trajan_cmk.jpg

    I should try to clean it better, but I didn't. Who could ID this countermark? Thanx...
     
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  19. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    My uninformed opinion thinks it may be Victory displayed in that countermark. However, I've never studied countermarks, so don't pay me any never mind.
     
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  20. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Nice! As @Bing suggests, it does look like a Victory...but I'm not sure.

    Check out these threads - the OP posted in this first one really looks like yours:

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/need-help-with-this-trajan-from-antioch.347662/

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/countermarked-trajan-sc-in-wreath-series-from-antioch.348905/

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/new-addition-countermarked-trajan-brass-as-lets-see-your-trajan-Æs.319053/
     
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  21. GinoLR

    GinoLR Well-Known Member

    Thanks ! maybe a laurel-branch (Howgego 378)...
     
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