why is gold and silver going down right now?

Discussion in 'Bullion Investing' started by djsmalls, Mar 20, 2012.

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  1. JCB1983

    JCB1983 Learning

    Expansionary monetary policy to solve debt is a complete cop-out, will not fly with the rest of the world, and will leave future generations to suffer.
     
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  3. InfleXion

    InfleXion Wealth Preserver

    The lifeblood of commercial markets is based on going into debt. So I do understand it and I understand that it is a broken model that needs to be replaced. As to causality, we could blame Jackson for getting rid of the central bank, but that would be like blaming your stomach for being hungry. The root cause was not his getting rid of the central bank, but rather the debt dependency created by the central banking system that was removed. It would be like an AIDS patient being taken off their meds, and saying that's what killed them. No, it was the AIDS, not the lack of medicine that killed the patient.

    In spite of your putting quotations around what you said I said, I did not say that. I said that only business that make money should be in business. You may infer that this requires someone to make money to start a business, and I would say yeah, that's how it's supposed to work. If you can't make money on your own what qualifies you to run a business on a grander scale? Every single major company that started out over the last century had to borrow money to get into business (I'd like to see a source for this), and how many of those are now nationalized by the goverment? How many of those are polluting the crap out of the world we live in? How many of those get free government money and stifle free enterprise? How much has overall debt increased since then? Nevermind that the last 100 years is how long the Federal Reserve has been in existence and played an integral role in creating this debt burden, something Andrew Jackson saved us from but unfortunately one man cannot outlast a generational foe.

    We have a fascist nation today, in that tax dollars are given to corporations. To say that only a fascist, communist, or totalitarian system could support free enterprise without stealing from tax payers is ludicrous and contrary to itself. Now I am not against credit, I think it's fine, IF the credit being provided is from someone else's wallet, money they actually earned, and not fabricated out of thin air for the purpose of debt servitude. I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to borrow money. What I am saying is if it is going to happen it should not be at the expense of monetary debasement. I cannot begin to fathom how you can justify going into debt servitude as a means of pulling oneself up by theirbootstraps. The way to rise above your station is through hard work and integrity, and someone who sees your worth will give you a leg up than can do so, as opposed to going into debt and playing in the rigged casino we call markets today.

    I have not called anyone any names, and I only use labels that are appropriate. I do not blame bankers for all the ills of society. We can put that on human nature, but I can and do blame the big banks for destroying our currency and creating a system that can only survive by exponentially growing debt which GDP cannot possibly keep up with. You could say that's the Fed's fault, but their board of directors is held by private bankers. It's a homogenous relationship. When it comes down to it though, the banks are just a tool used to control government which is a tool used to control the masses. The banks are not the root problem, merely the greatest weapon wielded by the enemies of freedom.
     
  4. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 Treasure Hunter

    Weighing the information against each other won't get you to the truth most of the time. It will just sway you toward the presentation that feels best. It isn't my intention to insult you -- just to possibly get you [and others] to think about the topic in a different manner. There is rarely one correct answer in life, as medoraman pointed out. But I'll leave it at that so that this doesn't turn into another chat room riot.
     
  5. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 Treasure Hunter

    How would you solve the debt problem if given unlimited power to address the issue?
     
  6. InfleXion

    InfleXion Wealth Preserver

    While this may all be true, it is not a reason to discount any information being provided. Information speaks for itself, and for those who do not get free money from the government they have to try and make money at what they do. The messenger says nothing about the information.
     
  7. PeacePeople

    PeacePeople Wall St and stocks, where it's at

    My bad in stating "weighing them against each other", let's say weigh them on their own merits and digging into them to find out the truths, half-truths and what is actually there.
     
  8. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    The lifeblood of commercial markets is time and place utility of money. Do you realize how long it takes to collect the cash for your product? That is the commercial finance that bests serves business. If I make a product today, it may take 6 months or longer depending on the business to get cash. I have payroll today.

    I am basically responding to your attack on fractional banking and yoru insistence that indebtedness is ruining this country. Short term indebtedness is what allows competition and new businesses to start.

    Maybe you feel the next Microsoft or Google will magically be funded by the generosity of strangers, or hoping it is the son of a billionaire willing to fund it. I say fractional reserve banking is how it will be funded to a large extent, that these new firms will not be taking money away but instead be the drivers of our economy in the future.

    You are throwing together things like government bailouts which have not a gosh dang thing to do with your attack on fractional reserve banking. I am against nearly every bailout, but to lump it with an idea that commercial credit markets should somehow be punished and crippled is simply saying I wish to live in 1830's America where my only job choice is sharecropper. 99% of all businesses in the US, if prevented access to commercial credit markets, would either not grow, or be bankrupt. Efficient use of capital requires prudent risks, and unexpected things come up in business that makes a short term indebtedness a requirement.

    Companies aren't going out and saying, "Hey, our measure of success is how much debt we can rack up". Their measure of success is profit, and if they need to use someone else's money for a while to achieve that they do. You can probably count on one hand the number of new factories put up in the US each year that are funded entirely on owners equity. You may think that is fine, and we do not need to create new jobs in this country, but I think especially right now its pretty important.

    I can see I probably won't change your mind, I just wanted to object publicly to this notion. Eliminating fractional reserve lending is the single most job destroying, great depression inducing idea that could be implemented short of outright nationalization of all industry.

    Chris
     
  9. JCB1983

    JCB1983 Learning

    Well forgive me for being naive here, but this is where I would begin. I would enact policies of protectionism. (I would just like to mention that I believe the Keynesian and Austrian economical approach to the balance of trade is both unbalanced). Not utilizing protectionism is simply taking jobs away and creating more borrowed money (debt) to consume... vicious cycle.

    We would stop dead in our tracks; make a 180 degree turn, and starting heading towards alternative energy. I would promote stimulus in all sectors of alternative energy. (Solar, wind, Tidal energy). I would allow visa's for entrants of higher level degrees in the fields of math and science.

    We would have to turn the switch on our natural resources into overdrive. Corn, wheat, soybeans, coal, tobacco, cotton. We would have to exponentially increase our exports for any natural resource that could be replenished.

    I would send diplomats to promote growth in Arab countries. (They are entirely reliant on imports).

    I would setup negotiations with South America for agricultural development techniques and increase trade with them.

    One main issue that we would have to get around is that of the corporate tax. We must lower the corporate tax rate to promote jobs here in America.


    While all of this is going on we have to have budgetary constraints. We would have to put fiscal watchdogs in place in every sector of government.


    We might have to impose tariffs until there is some light at the end of the tunnel in trade.


    With the exception of massively increasing our natural resource exportation, we should start to form an economic mindset of sustainability rather than expansionism.

    Anyway, just a start.




     
  10. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Well sir, I would say a couple of things about inflation. One, I don't agree how its compiled either, and have a couple of problems with it. I have written many posts about this here.

    Second, though, make sure you aren't looking at it through your own inflation prism. Everyone has their own personal inflation, costs of things YOU buy in the quantities you buy them. Lets think about gasoline. Maybe you have a pickup and live in the country. Gas prices are VERY important in your overall inflation figure. However, someone in NYC who doesn't own a car its meaningless. Same is true of everything. Ignoring how the government calculates inflation for a sec, everyone has different inflation each month. Maybe last month yours went up at an annualized 20% and you are mad as heck about it, but maybe mine went down 5% so I don't understand what the heck you are mad about.

    Just a thought.

    Chris
     
  11. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I would just say read about the Republican Consgress' actions in 1930 and see how well that worked out for us last time we went on a major protectionism binge. People blame the 29 crash for the depression, that had nothing to do with it, it was Congress' reaction to it that started the depression.

    I agree with some of the rest of your post Jason, and I agree we should be more aggressive in retaliatory measure against those nations such as India and China that steal US IP, blanket protectionism never works because, guess what, everyone else does the same and all you do is go down the worldwide depression path once more.
     
  12. JCB1983

    JCB1983 Learning

    I was under the impression that it was a world race to devalue the currency that had much to do with the depression? My feeling on protectionism is that the ball would be in our court. We have the natural resources. There is a difference between a want and a need. We do not need Chinese goods (they are convenient, but we do not need them). On the other hand China, Japan, and Arab nations are not very well self sustaining based upon natural resources. If we created a form of protectionism to atleast partially level the playing field on the balance of trades than they would still have a need for our goods.
     
  13. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Look up the dates of our protectionist bills, then their bills in response, then our bills in response, etc. It was a race to the bottom. Currency came a little later. Blanket protectionism simply reduces everyone's economy and hurts consumers most of all.

    Instead of government subsidies, I would say allow free development of US energy and possibly a oil importation tax if needed. I would rather the US government profits from encouraging alternative fuels than pays for them. As soon as government subsidizes anything, its a free for all on the treasury, and the best lobbyists, not the best technology, wins.

    Look at all the billions wasted in just a couple of years on bankrupt firms for solar cells lately.
     
  14. InfleXion

    InfleXion Wealth Preserver

    Personally I hope we never see another Microsoft or Google. Are you aware of the things they have done? Microsoft stole their technology from Xerox, and then Bill Gates stabbed Steve Jobs in the back. Google is the biggest threat to privacy that ever existed. I do not give them a dime of my money, and I wish nobody else had either. Now if we were to assume that you mean a company that generally benefits the greater good then I would simply say that people with money can choose to donate or loan money where they see fit, where it is deserved.

    The bailouts are paramount to this discussion because bailouts allow businesses that are not profitable to continue doing what they do while regular businesses go into bankruptcy because they can't compete with too big to fail. The fact that these businesses are not profitable in a way that also steals money directly through taxes as well as indirectly through free printed money under the table (I linked this $16 trillion free fund that happened alongside TARP elsewhere on this site) debasing existing currency is nothing short of a cancer on society. Free enterprise cannot coexist with this type of fascism, and the need to borrow is greatly expanded when there is no free competition. The measure of success in today's market is not dependent upon profit. Fractional reserve banking has the same effect as this $16T gift, in that any loan a bank makes is with money conjured into existence for the sake of the loan, thus decreasing purchasing power. It may not be directly related but they are both branches off the same tree (money created from nothing) and it's all intertwined. The more money is debased, the more people need to borrow to maintain their same standards. FWIW, I change my mind almost every day as I come across new information. I have yet to see you provide any that disputes what I am saying.
     
  15. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 Treasure Hunter

    One of the biggest problems that I see is that people can't distinguish between information and knowledge. This makes all information suspect. Medoraman has tried to show [correctly] how charts that are mathematically correct beyond refutation, and supposedly "proving" parabolic and unsustainable growth actually show nothing of the kind. So the information can be 100% accurate and the reader will still walk away completely misinformed depending on the message the writer is trying to convey.
     
  16. fatima

    fatima Junior Member

    Unlimited power isn't necessary. Power that isn't already established in law isn't necessary. The correct approach to too much debt is to raise interest rates to the point where normal market forces can reestablish themselves on the economy. Rates are not being allowed to rise to traditional levels simply for political reasons and to protect the finance industry. Given the amount of debt out there, 0% interest is insanity. Historical precedent from the last 100 years suggests that we should be at the 6% to 8% range and trending towards the higher side.

    Fundamentally this is (one of) the classic flaw(s) of any fiat system. it becomes too easy for politicians and banksters to create debt and flood the economy with it. Once they start down this path, the cure, high interest rates, becomes so painful that none of them will ever pull the trigger and the problem fixes itself instead by uncontrolled means. People should pay attention to the daily events in Greece, Italy, & Spain if they wish to see this in action.
     
  17. fatima

    fatima Junior Member

    Well, bless both of yer hearts,

    Anyone can made a deceptive chart. That doesn't mean that charting of data is deceptive. Anyone can use a gun to commit crime. That doesn't mean that someone with a gun is a criminal. Same faulty logical fallacy. You said it yourself and amazingly don't get it. i.e. It depends upon the intent.

    I find it a waste of time to try to establish or destroy the "intent" of others on this forum which is what is really being for argued here. IMO, anyone buying bullion has already graduated to the big boys & girls club and doesn't need to be lectured about the "intent" of others. It should be easy enough to cut through the BS because when put to an examination or logic applied to it, it doesn't hold up.
     
  18. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    you have no basis in reality to even say thing. The historical record is very clear that Jackson directly caused the economic collapse barbecue he opposed the Federal Bank, which was a radical and unsustainable position, ending the years of good feeling that existed until that mad drunk got into office.

    Your lack of recognition of even the basic political and US history just confirms to as a looney toon.

    Ruben
     
  19. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    this thread should be burried and the whole bullion section should be opt in only.

    Ruben
     
  20. PeacePeople

    PeacePeople Wall St and stocks, where it's at

    Really? Because points of view are expressed that are not yours, you want to deny they exist? Should we set up a special police force for policy adherement, also?
     
  21. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    That might not be a bad idea.
     
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