What's the go-to for ancients?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Noah Worke, Feb 1, 2022.

  1. Noah Worke

    Noah Worke Well-Known Member

    I'm trying to get in to the ancient realm, so I've been looking all over the internet for good places to buy. Before I make a decision, however, I though it would be a good idea to ask the experienced before making (yet another) stupid mistake. I found that Vcoins has a good selection, with a multitude of dealers. Given that there are multiple dealers, I was concerned that there may be a couple untrustworthy dealers or outright scammers. So, my question: Is Vcoins a reliable site, and who should I buy from? If not, what's your go-to? I'm not necessarily looking for anything expensive, if I find something I really like I'd go up to around 45 dollars. I like big coins, but in that price range they're few and far between, so I'm happy with ~20mm give or take. I've been looking at images and such, and the Gallic Empire has really captured my interest, along with coins featuring military designs. The Roman Empire is certainly going to be my preferred area. Thanks for any info!
     
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  3. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Hi Noah. V-coins is a good outlet, as is m-a shops - both offer fixed price coin sales. Their dealers must comply with the terms of the sites regarding authenticity and returns. Ebay also is popular but there are fraudsters and scam artists there (a small minority) but best to steer clear of Ebay until you have a bit of experience and know what to look for. There also are independent dealers with their own websites such as Marc Breitsprecher's.
     
  4. kirispupis

    kirispupis Well-Known Member

    Yes, VCoins is in general trustworthy. The following though are a few honest opinions about it.
    1. There are two well-known sellers who add fake desert patina to their coins. The coins themselves are real, but the patina is not and often inflates the price of the coin.
    2. I would buy coins on VCoins, but not antiquities. They are highly suspect, and one artifact I considered - which was listed as "Roman" I researched to discover it was in fact from the early 20th century.
    3. There are several sellers with extremely high prices. If you look around for some time, they should become obvious. Their listings make relatively common coins sound much rarer in order to justify the prices to newbies.
    4. There's at least one seller that resells items won at various auctions. The issue with the particular seller I know is some of those auction houses are not reputable.
    I've purchased from and recommend the following sellers:
    • Marc Breitsprecher
    • Aegean Numismatics
    • London Ancient Coins
    • N&N Collection
    • CoinIndia
    • Ken Dorney
    • Numiscorner
    You should also look at ma-shops. I've ordered from the following shops there without issues.
    • Dr Busso Peus
    • Sann
    • Henzen
    • M&M
    • Mike Vosper
    • Fenzl
    • Kolner Munzkabinett
    Stay far away from EBay. The majority of ancient coins there are fake.
     
  5. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

  6. furryfrog02

    furryfrog02 Well-Known Member

    Also Warren Esty's shop:
    Augustus Coins

    Tons of great information there too.
     
  7. Noah Worke

    Noah Worke Well-Known Member

    Thank you, I'll be sure to give these a look. I have seen quite a few coins on VCoins advertising a desert patina, which seems highly suspect.
     
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  8. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    As a condition of selling on vcoins, you are required to guarantee all coins for life, meaning you will accept a return with a full refund even 50 years after the sale date.

    That said, vcoins does not require all their sellers to charge a fair or even realistic price. Frequently sellers will peddle $20 coins for $100, $100 coins for $1,000 etc. I have bought some coins on vcoins, but generally speaking you are much better off going with auction sites like CNG, Roma, or most of the auctions on Biddr (be wary of the ones that have had less than 20 sales; lots of newbies on there who either unknowingly sell fakes or blatantly mis-attribute).

    Ebay is a great place for common middle and late Roman coins, but I would advise that you stick mostly to low value coins and never buy any coins from sellers in Eastern Europe, Cyprus, Russia, or China. Also check Forvm's fake sellers list:
    https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=18502.0

    Since you mentioned Gallic coins specifically, I will offer one piece of advice - don't buy from more high end auctions like CNG or Roma. For reasons I can't explain, the bidding goes crazy on those.

    On a $45 budget you should be able to get a nice Postumus
    Postumus PROVIDENTIA AVG.jpg

    Or a very nice Victorinus
    Victorinus pax avg.jpg

    Tetricus I and II saw the quality control at their mints go down the toilet, so there is a huge gap between "nice" and "superb" for them. These cost me about $10-20 each
    tetricus I hilaritas.jpg
    Tetricus II Pietas Avgg priestly implements.jpg

    Still arguably the best "bang for your buck" emperor always has been Gordian III; $45 should be able to get you an antoninianus in XF range
    Gordian III Antoninianus VIRTVS AVG.jpg
     
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  9. kirispupis

    kirispupis Well-Known Member

    VCoins and ma-shops can be higher priced than auctions, but it's also often the other way around. Too many times have I seen a coin bid up too high because the bidders weren't aware of the going price.

    In particular, I've often found better deals at vcoins/ma-shops for some of the rarer bronzes. These may go very high at some auctions, but are often reasonably priced on VCoins.

    For higher-end silvers, these are usually cheaper at auction, but not always. Arguably my nicest coin (the front page of my site) was purchased from an ma-shops seller (CGB) for a fraction of what it would go at auction these days.

    FWIW, the only Gallic coins I have were purchased from Roma at the minimum bid. Unfortunately I haven't photographed them yet.
     
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  10. Gavin Richardson

    Gavin Richardson Well-Known Member

    If you like large coins on a budget, you can still find large-ish bronze coins of the Roman tetrarchs of the 4th century in that price range, especially if you are not insistent upon EF coins. Take for example this coin in Victor Clark's VCoins shop right now: https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/vi...nserv_vrb_svae_from_rome/1503482/Default.aspx

    An attractive coin at 24 millimeters for $35.

    Incitatus coins on VCoins also has large coins in lesser grades that are affordable. Here is a worn but collectable 32 mm. Faustina I for $34: https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/in...lding_scepter__palladium/1602922/Default.aspx
     
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  11. SEGESTIUS

    SEGESTIUS Member

    I would agree that newbies should avoid Ebay until they gain more experience.

    But to post that the majority are fakes just shows the inexperience and lack of knowledge of the person posting this untruth.

    If one takes the time and effort to look at ancient coins on Ebay, it is obvious that far fewer than 5% are fake. But saying the "majority" does make a good soundbite for an unknowledgeable person.
     
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  12. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I would strongly disagree with your 5% figure. I think it's higher.

    A few random thoughts.

    Coins aside, I do think it might be accurate to say that the majority of antiquities on Ebay are fake! Especially the purported ancient Egyptian antiquities. There are only a handful of reputable antiquities dealers there. Look for those with independent websites as well.

    One way to avoid fake ancient coins on Ebay is never to buy what looks like an amazing bargain -- a Julius Caesar denarius for only $25.00?? Wow! Compare prices first with what similar coins go for on VCoins or MA-Shops.

    Another way is only to buy slabbed ancient coins, particularly if they were slabbed by NGC. The problem is that most are priced anywhere from twice to 10x fair market value. Some sellers are willing to bargain.

    Finally, there are some VCoins and MA-Shops dealers who also sell on Ebay. Not a guarantee, but it's some assurance of reputability.

    There's no reason to be coy: the two dealers on V-Coins most known for fake desert patina on Late Roman bronzes are Athena and Zurqieh. There's a Spanish dealer named Prado most of whose Late Roman bronze coins have a suspiciously identical green patina. I know nothing else about them.

    Zurqieh also sells a lot of antiquities, which do appear to be genuine. They're in Abu Dhabi, I believe. Who knows how they get their supply?

    Athena's practices are particularly unfortunate, because they have a huge inventory of sometimes very nice coins. But the problems arising from what they do to genuine coins go far beyond fake desert patina on bronze coins, and extend to applying some sort of chemical process to almost all their silver coins, resulting in what I consider an extremely fake-looking bluish tint. Which, fortunately, can be removed.

    An example of a Hadrian Aegyptos denarius I purchased from Athena.

    As purchased:

    Hadrian - Egypt - jpg version.jpg

    As it looks now, after removing the fake patina -- a lot of which actually faded away all by itself within a few months, before I did anything at all!:

    Hadrian-Aegyptos - new combined photo.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2022
  13. kirispupis

    kirispupis Well-Known Member

    Disregarding the personal attack from a new (troll?) member, the figure is way higher than 5%. Just do a search for "Alexander the Great tetradrachm" and scroll through the fakes. Is it greater than 50% (and hence a majority)? That's difficult to say. There are certainly a large enough percentage that it's "buyer beware".

    Every week or so there's at least one post on this forum from someone who bought a Naxos tet from Bulgaria for $100 or some other fake coin from EBay and wants to know if it's real. I'm honestly unsure whether these are simply fakes manufacturers who want to check their wares, or if there are simply that many gullible people out there. It's probably a bit of both.

    Finally, many of the reputable stores on EBay also have shops on VCoins and ma-shops. Due to EBay fees, the prices are often lower on VCoins.
     
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  14. SEGESTIUS

    SEGESTIUS Member

    Your comment was "Stay far away from EBay. The majority of ancient coins there are fake."

    If calling you out on a blatant falsehood is being a troll, then I accept the moniker.
     
  15. furryfrog02

    furryfrog02 Well-Known Member

    I will say this:
    I love the sellers who are members here. I am 100% confident in what I am buying from them.

    I love vcoins. I have much more assurance that the coin I am buying is legit - albeit sometimes more expensive.

    I also love ebay...wait wait wait before you grab the pitchforks and torches hear me out - ebay has its place. Is it a great place for high end things like Naxos or Alexander III tets? No not at all. The fakes are everywhere. Are there lots of interesting coins at reasonable prices? Yup - as long as you know what to look for/look out for.

    @Noah Worke said he is looking to spend a max of $45. He could do quite well buying a nice bronze coin at any of those 3 places I mentioned above for that price. As long as he does his homework.

    Here are my examples of such coins. All are larger than 20mm and less than $45 (two of his requirements).

    Purchased from Warren Esty
    Maximinus II, Follis, IOVI CONSERVATORI, -SM-TS-.png

    Purchased from vcoins
    Ptolemy IV Philopater, AE38, Eagle.png

    Purchased from ebay
    Elagabalus and Julia Maesa, AE27, Marcianopolis, Serapis.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2022
  16. kirispupis

    kirispupis Well-Known Member

    Interestingly, a quick search on this forum brought up another post where someone attempted to quantify the percentage of fakes.

    For Denarii, the number was about 20%.
    Sestertii were 20%
    Athenian owls were 40-60%
    Aeginata turtles and Julius Caesar were 40-60%

    A quick search for "Alexander the Great tetradrachm" puts it in the 40-60% category too. I also suspect that the poster didn't go through Forgery Network and Fake Coin Reports for each one, meaning that the percentages are more likely to be underestimated. Note that it's pretty easy to corroborate these rough numbers by performing a cursory search for a specific coin.

    Of course, these are just the fakes (and obvious ones). It doesn't include misattributed coins or coins priced way above what they should.

    So, are the majority fakes? That depends. Since I tend to buy Greek silver, that's a "yes". For those looking at Roman coinage not from Julius Caesar, it's lower.

    What is true is that your quote of <5% is way off. Of course, if one wants the odds, given a coin at random that it's a) real and b) correctly attributed and c) priced correctly, then I would agree that it's well below 5%.
     
  17. SEGESTIUS

    SEGESTIUS Member

    Hmmmm.... Picking and choosing categories....

    I just went through a sample of the late Roman bronzes listed on Ebay (there are a lot of them) and it was almost impossible for me to find a forgery in this group. Would this lead me to make the statement that less than 1% of all coins on Ebay are fakes...? No....

    Just like making the statement that the majority of coins on Ebay are fake, based on a sample of only specific categories is a falsehood. And even in the samples that you used, the number would still fall well below 50%... maybe closer to 25%. But when you add all of the other ancient coin categories to the mix, the percentage then plummets.
     
  18. SEGESTIUS

    SEGESTIUS Member

    kirispupis - We do have one common thought... Newbies should avoid Ebay until they have the experience to detect forgeries.
     
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  19. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

  20. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    I think the bluish hue on some of the Athena silver coins is created by Naval Jelly. If this pink colored acid is left on a silver coin for several minutes, the silver has time to react to the acid phosphoric acid (25-30%) and acid sulfuric acid (1-3%), it will turn blue when the coin is washed, dried and exposed to air. Any silver cleaning solution will eliminate this toning, but then the coin's surface is being played around with. It is best to leave it as-is. With time the blue will darken to a somewhat more acceptable shade, along with the rest of the coin.

    The owl came from Athena with a definite blue tint, actually stronger than this photo from the seller depicts:

    Qataban South Arabia 3rd-4th cens BC bluish toning 2-1-22.jpg

    Here it is after a brief cleaning with dilluted silver cleaning solution and distilled water. Most of the blue tint is gone, leaving a fairly uniform grey color. Again, with time the coin naturally darken, maybe not in my lifetime, but it will eventually.

    D-Camera  Qataban South Arabia tetradrachm, imiation owl, 4-3 cen BC, 16.9 grams Vcoins 7-3-21.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2022
  21. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    I see Forum Ancients mentioned for fake coin information, but ancients are for sale as well. The prices tend to be fair, and sometimes a relative bargain shows up.
     
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