Warning concerning Julius Caesar (443/1) elephant forgery type

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by rg3, Aug 26, 2020.

  1. rg3

    rg3 Well-Known Member

    One of my collecting sub-goals has been to put together a collection of NON-PORTRAIT lifetime denarii of Julius Caesar:
    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/the-seven-non-portrait-lifetime-julius-caesars.305507/

    Several years ago I purchased the following:
    https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/pa...lephant_trampling_serpent/829247/Default.aspx

    At the time, I was mindful of the following 2014 Agora sale:
    https://agoraauctions.com/listing/viewdetail/8669/0/archive
    and thought the Musa dealer (Mr. Glen Lindwall) may have purchased this and cleaned it a bit (doubtful considering a loss after VCoins sale). This turned out not to be the case.

    Now there is an example for bid on Savoca:
    https://www.biddr.com/auctions/savoca/browse?a=1242&l=1321272

    After contacting Mr. Glen Lindwall this week, he graciously agreed to refund my money and encouraged me to post here on this matter. I see there are 5 bids on the Savoca coin and wanted to save anyone the trouble, and also inform the community of this type (since I did not see it listed on the Forgery Network).

    DTb93qH6j5xEpL2MT4FrdNN7S6SafY (1).jpg 1000-17-179.jpg 1321272_1597065568.l.jpg
     
    Shea19, thejewk, Cucumbor and 19 others like this.
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  3. Ryro

    Ryro They call me the 13th Caesar Supporter

    HUGE bummer. Sorry to read and thanks so much for sharing and keeping us aware!
     
    TIF, Severus Alexander and rg3 like this.
  4. Savoca

    Savoca Member

    Dear customers, colleagues and forum members,

    first of all we would like to thank our customers, who have made us aware of this.
    We have examined the coin once again and discussed it in detail in our office and we agree with you that unfortunately the coin is a counterfeit.

    We really apologize for the wrong evaluation of the coin, it was not our intention to insert a counterfeit into the auction. We have just removed the coin from the auction.

    For further questions don’t hesitate to contact us.
    We wish you a nice day!
    Best regards
    Matteo Savoca
     
  5. Roerbakmix

    Roerbakmix Well-Known Member

    Could someone point out why this is a fake? Are the three pictures above three different coins? Am I missing something?
     
  6. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Dombes collector Supporter

    Three coins with the exact same flan shape and centering, same details, same defects (e.g. at 11 O' clock on the obverse) : at best two of them are fakes made from an original, more likely three are fakes made from the same mold

    Q
     
    Carthago, rg3, Co1ns and 2 others like this.
  7. Exodus_gear

    Exodus_gear Well-Known Member

    As Cucumbor stated it is rather difficult to find 2, let alone 3 coins with almost exact similarities. There is a possibility of it but those, from what I have read and heard, are generally in Hordes which are generally swooped up my museums.<<<<Could be wrong about this.
     
  8. Roerbakmix

    Roerbakmix Well-Known Member

    Yes, I noticed the similarities, which (if indeed three different coins) would be a clear indication of forgery. However, it was not clear for me whether these are indeed three different coins, or the same coin photographed at three different time intervals, the first uncleaned and the second and third uncleaned.

    Also, those hairline fractures look like 'real' fractures. It would be impossible to get the exact same hairline fractures three times in a row ...
     
    Alegandron and Co1ns like this.
  9. Co1ns

    Co1ns Active Member

    I'm thinking that first one with the horn silver deposits is legit and was used to make a mold.
     
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