Featured Vespasian 'Dream Coin'

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by David Atherton, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. TIF

    TIF Always learning. Supporter

    I'm with @Lolli and @Severus Alexander. I don't see how it could be authentic in light of the other coins with the same flan shape and centering. :(

    If you didn't pay a fortune for it, I think that's a great idea. A forgery that passed undetected through so many experienced hands is unusual and interesting in and of itself!

    To give Lolli the benefit of a doubt, I suspect much of this perception is a language and culture issue. Subtleties of written communication are difficult to convey.
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
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  3. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    It wasn't too expensive and the headache of negotiating a return is something I wish to avoid.

    The language thing could be true in Lolli's case, but he had a condemning partner who does indeed enjoy trolling me.
    TIF likes this.
  4. TIF

    TIF Always learning. Supporter

    I have that person on Ignore and highly recommend you do the same :D.
  5. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 Well-Known Member

    I would also keep it, it's a handsome coin with an old provenance and like TIF said, it passed through many hands. Wouldn't hurt to let Olding know, perhaps they'll refund a portion of the price if you want to keep it.

    I think if you suspect someone's coin is a fake, the polite and appropriate thing to do is to send them a private message, not air it out in public. Let the owner decide if they want to have a group discussion or take it elsewhere.
  6. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    Very regrettable!
    David, as a relatively old-time devoted collector of 1st. century bronzes, I feel for you because I understand how much joy this acquisition brought you.
    Yes, I too had no second thoughts about it. I actually quite like it, still.

    However, Lollie has presented enough evidence to at least cause me to have severe doubts about the authenticity of this coin. The evidence swayed me once I got over the 'tone' (and I do put this down to the fact that likely for him, like certainly for me, english is not our mother tongue).

    My advice is to let the seller (Manfred Olding?) at least know of these reservations, and the evidence.

    There are others out there, my friend!
  7. Petavius

    Petavius Member

    Actually it is a very interesting perspective on 'provenance', and how much guarantee it gives you.
    Recently I visited a museum in Germany "Schloss Erbach" ("Erbach Palace"), which boasts a collection of antient coins collected by the palace owner Graf zu Erbach Franz I, archeologist and antiquity collector, who used to travel end of 18 century to Italy.
    And to my surprise I immediately spotted fake roman coins in the collection displayed. So even museum coins with provenance back to 18 century do not guarantee authenticity.
    But even these fake coins are very intersting, you see how the "business" to fool the rich travellers prospered in Italy more than 200 years ago.

  8. Erhan

    Erhan Active Member

    Wow guys I just read this thread . Now you made me worried about my coin. I always thought having such provenance is safe . Can someone please let me know my Vespasian from Herman Luckger collection is also a fake? Well patina looks very similar to the one from @David Atherton collection. @Lolli and @TIF what you guys think?
  9. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    Yours looks good to me. No warning bells are ringing. Keep in mind my situation is a special case. There is no need to worry about your coin.
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  10. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    As a postscript, I have taken @TIF and @Jay GT4's advice and have asked Olding for a partial refund in light of the piece being a cast forgery. Hopefully we can come to some sort of satisfactory conclusion to this unfortunate episode
  11. Nemo

    Nemo Well-Known Member

    This really stinks but unfortunately it is part of the reality of this hobby. I agree though, a well pedigreed fake is an interesting piece. I have a fake denarius that passed through Heritage, Pegasi Numismatics and others till it landed in my collection, I’m happy to still have it.
    David Atherton likes this.
  12. Erhan

    Erhan Active Member

    Thanks @David Atherton However the patina seems very similar to yours at least from the image and if @Lolli found yours fake based on the patina (as it seems like it) then my coin would also fail. But on the other hand I did not find the die matches of mine on acsearch however these coins have pedigree going back to 19th century so god knows if there exists somewhere in some old collection their identical cast matches!
  13. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander Blame my mother. Supporter

    The main evidence was the matched coins with the exact same wear pattern and flan shape, not the patina. :)
  14. Lolli

    Lolli Member

    Casting twins were sold as authentic (only one was sold as cast fake) so it was not only about the coin belonging to David Atherton . I wanted to warn others about all these twins so I posted it public. And the Peus piece seems to be sold wrongly as Cavino although it is authentic so this should have made public. By posting it public some buyers of the casting twins get the chance to get their money back if they get notified (maybe someone will write the involved auction houses) or at least if they are offered again the dealers or auction houses could be warnend by someone from here. I do generally only look in thread if there is fake or suspicious etc written in description but in that case this thread was featured so I saw the coin on the homepage without entering the thread and I did and do not like the coin...
    It has nothing to do with David Atherton.
    I do not even know him so why should I do have anything angainst him ?

    @ Erhan your Lucius Verus is almost certainly genuine as far as I can tell based on pictures.
    Your patina is different.
    Your coin been smoothed, written in auction description and visible on pictures !


    "Felder geglättet" = fields smoothed !!!!!

    (I think there was an anthentic but very rugh and uneven patina on your coin but such rough patinas can be sometimes not so aesthetic and some people are smoothing such coin to make them in their opinion better.)

    I am wondering why this ngc slabbed stater NGC AU, strike: 5/5, surface: 4/5
    was withdrawn



    (I can only speculate and of course I could be wrong , on reverse same die flaw above Nikes wing and missing M + on obverse same line extending the nose protection of the helmet as on published fakes )


    IBSCC Bulletin on Counterfeits BOCS Vol 8 No.1/2 1983 Page 9 Fig 3

    Some impossible die links exist.

    Sadly Beirut forgers and some Bulgarian forgers etc have the bad habbit to produce transfer dies of fakes from modern dies or transfer dies or from recutted transfer dies. So you will have the original good or high quality fakes and some bad quality transfer die fakes made from some of these fakes.

    No need to worry I am not interested in NGC etc anymore and I was never interested in coin business I honestly do not like coin business, I only like authentic coins and fake coin. And I will spend my time and money now in my family.Coin business is too much business and many auction houses and dealers have family and children and many employees for who they are responsible same counts for authentication services. If there is much money and if there are many emotions involved it is better for me to stay away from it.

    I will defend no matter who he or she is if I think that it is one sided and unfair (not giving the attacked one the chance to defend ). It has something to do with my sense of justice. If someone is doing something not legal that is harming another person this person should get of course the punishment he or she deserves in a fair case. I hate prejudging.

    If you try to help and if you get then attacked personally you will think twice if you will help again. Especially if you do not know my intentions why I posted it public!
    To write a pm would have helped him but it would not have been fair to the other buyers of the twins who deserve to get the chance to find out about this matter, too buy reading this thread. All deserve to be notified not only one.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  15. Erhan

    Erhan Active Member

    Thanks @Lolli But it seems you mistaken my coin with another coin. My coin is a Vespasian not Lucius verus.

    Bing likes this.
  16. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    Another post script: Olding and I have come to a satisfactory conclusion. I will be getting a generous partial refund and will keep the coin for my Black Cabinet.

    @Lolli, thank you for taking the time to research this conclusively. I would not want to live in ignorance with such a piece. My earlier ire was not directed toward you but to another who takes glee in tormenting me.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  17. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    SA is correct. My coin's issue was the matched flan shaped and strike, not the patina. FWIW, the patina looked perfectly fine for such a piece. It did not give me any concerns at all. Proof that it doesn't take that long for a convincing patina to develop on an antique fake!
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
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  18. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 Well-Known Member

    The best outcome in a situation like this. Good on Olding for making it right.

    @Lolli it still would have been the proper etiquette to PM David first and let him decide when to make it public. It's just good manners, after all it's his coin and Olding's reputation. In the end though it all worked out.

    As Joe would say..."Fake coin report"
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  19. Erhan

    Erhan Active Member

    Thanks @David Atherton It was a relief for me to know mine is good :) I would have a hard time to return as I bought from a good dealer and did not want go through trouble of returning and affecting my business relationship with the dealer.
    David Atherton likes this.
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