Tulving in Trouble

No, Hannes isn't "suing anybody" for slander or defamation - that's NUTS. He's a thrice-convicted crook! (Specifically, a fraudster, a schemer, a thief, a liar and a cheat.) I do wonder if he'll be up to his old tricks again c. 2018, given his history at it.

It's amazing that any legit bullionist would be defending Tulving in 2015. But imrich has, for a decade or so? (Search function here proves it.) Utterly bizarre. Among many examples, "best in the biz!"
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/hannes-tulving-slabs.137877/#post-1027677

I have a few questions. We know Tulving did it before: didn't pay full restitution to the victims then either. Where does it say he must pay, this time? We shall see, in 90 days...

The forensics financial experts either couldn't unravel the mess or simply won't publish their findings to aid other would-be con-artists. Hannes was either cunning or dim ('stealing from Peter, to pay Paul' over ~20 years: just managing, fanning the Cult of Hannes, etc.) I think the coin public deserves to know which. But it bothers me more that Tulving was been given a pass, back in the 90s... why not again?

So, what? Out on good behavior in under 9 months, and he must stay away from kiddie playgrounds? That doesn't sound like he's banned from selling numismatics (grifter's choice) to me and if his perennial fan club here is any indication, why wouldn't he "sell" again? He knows the memory of you people is short, and often dim. He's done it before, lol!

Does the company still exist? Was it sold? If so, would the new owner assume that burden? Certain assets were sold, the name, customer lists, etc. but that was a few years ago I think.

R. Todd Neilson indicated a valuation of $7,367,235 for the 12,539 Presidential Missing Edge Letter Coins as provided by Miles Standish (“Standish Valuation”), which will fall under the auctioneer's hammer in the coming months. Recall the Secret Service had estimated $3 mln, and some delusional coin collectors counter-claimed $20 mln. Keep watch, learn the truth! (Spot-checking the valuation, Neilson confirmed some of these coins sold for less than 10% the estimate.) And he doesn't mention it here, but who paid for his investigation - aren't cash proceeds to victims net all costs? I'm guessing the average Tulving victim gets less than 10 cents on the Dollar after all's said and done, but again, Judge Cogburn hasn't ruled on restitution yet.

Exactly how will Hannes make whole these poor "investors"? 'Hey, I have an idea...' lol
http://tulvingbankruptcy.com/

 

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I would think the guy would be PERMANENTLY banned from the coin/numismatic business.

I never understood these "make whole" orders unless they figured a guy got a very lucrative job down the line and/or won Powerball. I mean, even if he gets a respectable job and makes $150K a year I don't know how he can make a dent in a multi-million dollar judgement given his current age. Unless he lives to age 150.

 

It's more about ruining the future life of the person who ruined others lives in cases like this. And giving back at least something to the victims I believe

 

I believe you'll find most individuals that fail in a business endeavor, and receive a "sentence", if they want to continue their activities, just establish a new "identity" (i.e. Corporation, Limited Liability entity, etc.). Unless you've personally experienced the failure of a "business", or filed for bankruptcy, it is difficult to understand the process. I've had several businesses fail through theft by employees/associates, government confiscation of assets, changes in laws which eliminated economic incentive/possibility (e.g. Minnesota Bullion Legislation), etc.. I've avoided interference by government agencies by generation of settlement agreements with clients/partners, which made any possibly aggrieved entities "whole".

Once government agencies initiate punitive actions, generally all means for corrective action are eliminated, and any assets are consumed by government agencies, counsel, etc..

Only a fool tries to resist the "process" because the entities declaring offense can use any means for destructive action without objective challenge (e.g. WMD charge against Hussein, charges against Gaddafi, etc. which cost their lives without benefit of open/legal adjudication). A smart entity will try to eliminate payment of damages by a passage of time, eroding the plaintiffs ability to prove "damages".

A court will often adjudicate "damages" for plaintiffs which are generally never realized.

I've personally experienced this phenomena on numerous occasions, having had my assets stolen by firms which survived by stall tactics, where the ability to prove damages has been eroded. One example of this is I was a member of a class action in 2002, against Paypal where my assets/account were frozen/stolen? by the defendant. An "out of court" relatively token payment to the Plaintiff attorneys, without payment to those "damaged", basically diminished/suspended future efforts for retribution. I believe most know the success of Paypal. This firm is similar to others who have been reported to the general population without being heeded, who are believed to await future criminal? actions for their business activities.

14 years later, we, the lawsuit initiators, are allowed to prove that we were "damaged", thus:
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/class-action-settlement

LOL Another futile exercise!!

JMHO

 

The Trustee’s deal apparently/presumably offers junk coins to the victims as settlement, at a stated assumed 50% haircut. (Bogus: see below.) The possibility of additional monies (from where else?!) is mentioned, namely:

176,461 “Non-Error Coins” (estimated value $400,000.) to be sold at auction by June 30, 2016. After all costs and fees are deducted, I will guess the value of that coin lot $300,000.

about.ag/pics/bk/TrusteeReport7.pdf
>>“I am informed and believe that the mass infusion of12,539 Error Coins into the market over a short period of time would represent a significant increase in the availability of Error Coins within the marketplace and would therefore substantially reduce the overall value of all Error Coins. I also believe that the Error Coins would likely require a number of years to fully be absorbed into the marketplace which would require that the Bankruptcy Case remain open with all of the attendant costs of compliance, including tax returns and distributions.* Based upon the foregoing, I propose to return the Error Coins directly to the Victim/Creditors in a ratable fashion based upon the valuation of $7,367,235 and the percentage amount of each such creditor’s allowed claim vis-à-vis all allowed Victim/Creditors’ claims.”<<

*For example, assuming the total Victim/Creditors’ claims amounted to $15 million and the value allocated to the distribution of the Error Coins equaled $7.5 million, the Victim/Creditors’ Claims would be reduced by 50% ($15 million / $7.5 million) prior to additional distributions by the Trustee in the Bankruptcy Case.

Total Claims = $17,915,425
Total Claims = 250 (Victims/Creditors)
Avg Claim per Victim = $ 71,662. (actually lower, because 100! victims didn’t file any claim)

Now let’s look very, very carefully at the VALUE of these raw unslabbed “Error Coins” in various scenarios imagined:

1) Total Value = + $20,000,000. (Collectors’ fantasy #)
Error Coin Value, per = + $ 1,600.
Proceeds Per Victim = + $ 80,000.

2) Total Value = $ 11,384,000. (imrich/Tulving)
Error Coin Value, per = $ 908.
Proceeds Per Victim = $ 45,536.

3) Total Value = $ 7,367,235. (Neilson/Standish)
Error Coin Value, per = $ 587.
Proceeds Per Victim = $ 29,469.

4) Total Value = $ 3,017,718. (SS/DoJ)
Error Coin Value, per = $ 241.
Proceeds Per Victim = $ 12,070.

5) Total Value = $ 376,170. (SLABS: eBay net: Jan/Feb 2016)
Error Coin Value, per = $ 30.
Proceeds Per Victim = $ 1,500.

6) Total Value = $ 213,163. (eBay net; assumed depreciated: Jun 2016)
Error Coin Value, per = $ 17.
Proceeds Per Victim = $ 853.

Worse case scenario: a creditor victim gets 250 Dollar coins to then package & dispose of, net $17./ea on feeBay, recouping less than $ 0.02 on the Dollar on his/her initial "Tulving bullion" investment.

 

I understand your anal irritant 1st amendment allowed hyperbole, but would suggest you suspend inclusion of personal untruths from your subjective posts.

 

Over at Collector's Universe the issue was discussed: https://forums.collectors.com/messa...ORDFRM=&STARTPAGE=1&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

Seems like these guys live pretty high on the hog without sufficient checks and balances in management.

 

I am well-familiar with Madoff since my bank would look at him from time-to-time and decide if we would place client's money with him (we never did).

Assuming Tulving did not speculate on commodity prices, and assuming he never got burned shorting a rising market or getting caught buying lots of metal before a big plunge, I have to think that he did what Madoff did: rather than 'fess up to a small 1-time hit to the balance sheet/income statement from some losses in whatever or just a decline in general sales, he tried to cover it up and hoped to get bailed out later on.

In theory....if Tulving simply marks up coins to make a commission...he isn't taking any commodity risk. His only overhead is space rent, employee salaries, his salary, etc. But if business dries up, commissions on coins can be insufficient to cover expenses. Changing preferences -- from more lucrative products (numismatics) to less profitable (bullion) -- could also explain a problem.

Then you try and make up for a decline in general revenues by taking on more risk -- like outright commodity speculation or buying a bunch of coins that you think will go up and give you plenty of inventory -- and if the market moves against you, you are dead.

I don't know the specifics, but the general pattern looks familiar.

 

Any serious volume and buyers need to hedge in their purchases and sell them asap. Anyone who speculates can get in big trouble quickly especially when the floor falls out. Some of them buy numismatics favorably, type gold at or around melt and then make profits on the grading that goes favorably. It looks like Tulving was a major submitter to PCGS.

An interesting point, both Tulving and Madoff were regarded before their trouble as unquestioned authorities in their fields. How would customers have known unless insiders squealed or there was a thorough audit?

 

True....in THEORY, if you sell the same amount at rising and falling price levels, it shouldn't matter. But of course, folks will buy when prices lag on the upside and cancel orders or not buy when prices fall and you are locked into inventory at above-market prices.

For low-volumes, most commodity moves don't matter. But for a larger buyer, it does. And if there is a big move in gold or silver in 1 day or 1 week -- we've had a few every few years -- that could also impact someone like Tulving.

Easiest way to hedge would be to just short or buy the gold or silver ETFs, IMO. Low-commissions, done in a brokerag account, 100% hedge effective.

Yeah, Ponzi Schemes are tough to figure out. BARRON'S had a few articles and that guy from Boston had talked to the SEC. But even the SEC couldn't find anything wrong with Madoff. Most people thought at worst he was using his past ties to NASDAQ to rig the trading tape or something.

Biggest red flag was no succession plan if Madoff died and the lack of support staff (portfolio managers, analysts) to help him run that much money. As I understand it, the amount of money he managed did not jibe with the size of the options market daily volume that was his supposed trading strategy.

 

Jaffee also is now a guest of the federal government; unfortunately many of those ripped off in his enterprise at National were not so fortunate. http://www.tbo.com/news/politics/once-wealthy-coin-dealer-sentenced-for-fraud-20151204/

 

I'll never understand why someone with so much talent -- look at what Heritage said they'd pay him -- would risk imprisonment and/or disgrace. It's like Bill Gates or Warren Buffet shoplifting. Makes no sense at all.

 

He set up a $7 million trust fund *after* he declared bankruptcy?

 

No sympathy -- if you "steal" to keep the company alive and/or to pay off earlier purchases, at least you are trying and hoping the business gets solvent.

This guy took out $$$ to spend money on a $25 MM mansion.

 

Talent? I would like an insider's view on how Mark Jaffee ran the business. Just look at everyone who got burned. People who had their money tied up and got wiped out including their families. Terrible and you wonder why more of the scammed don't take the law into their own hands, not saying that that could be justified, but if you destroy someone's finances, how can they recover?

 

I bought a 41d walker from a dealer in florida last year...it was in an old Hannes-Tulving slab...that guy has been in and out of trouble for a while.

 

I've seen this move before -- and now. The government is going after banks and other Wall Street firms basically by extorting money from them. The uninformed and Bernie Sanders supporters keep asking "why isn't anybody from Wall Street in jail?" Well, it's NOT A CRIME to make stupid loans or to lose money. Besides, most of the reckless firms went out of business and/or remaining firms got diluted to hell. Shareholders have suffered enough. Ditto employees.

Meanwhile....the real crooks who actually ARE stealing and ripping off people (including the elderly) are not being targeted. Think boilerrooms, penny stock scamsters, etc. I know, I actually got my start in a penny stock firm (we actually did a semi-legit business) and some of our more sleazy competitors stayed in business for YEARS while the SEC and Feds went after Merrill Lynch for overtrading some millionaires account.

 

I'll ignore your suggestion (nonsense, rubbish) because there are no "personal untruths" in my post that you've just quoted.

I see nothing in that article confirming Yaffe ripped off any little guy; on the contrary, his defense was full of people swearing "what a great guy he is!" By contrast, I wonder which of Tulving's online shills issued statements to defend his rep in court. (Probably none.) That's their character, no?
TBO link: "Yaffe, 55, has to pay restitution of $3,049,581 to Sovereign Bank. That’s the amount he is accused of removing from the accounts of National Gold Exchange, a north Tampa company he owned with his brother Alan."

Excellent point, applicable to Tulving as well. Mr. 'Best in the biz' has burned hundreds of coin/bullion investors, twice; his business model was crooked/criminal and demonstrably unsustainable.

Many, many more individual victims of Tulving suffered bigger and outright losses. Versus the Yaffe case, again, that article implies only ONE BANK took the hit. I'm not crying for Sovereign; I would assume they made their clients whole. Tulving victims are screwed.

Let's all please stop insinuating or imaging that Tulving was hedged, speculating, etc. with brokerage accounts - the forensics investigator confirmed he was not. Tulving couldn't even get a personal bank account, his (old) creditors were so persistent.

Bad businessman. No doubt.

 

For anyone interested in reading something other than seemingly an uninformed fools hyperbole about the Tulving business and actual legal proceedings concerning the defendant, I might suggest accessing this open documentation by a private investigator, thus:

http://about.ag/tulving.htm

I personally dealt with both Hannes and Mark for many years, and successfully received numerous orders from both of their firms when complying with published/known procedures for ordering. I know of others who failed to heed warnings about placement, and had unresolved "problems", believed of their making. I've had a few similar problems with associates/clients in the past, and realize how if you didn't address their perceived injustices, one might be criminalized in the subjective court of public opinion. Once uninformed fools publish unsubstantiated/unrebuked tripe, and attorneys/government become involved, it's believed there isn't hope for recovery.

JMHO

 

"[He's a thrice-convicted crook! (Specifically, a fraudster, a schemer, a thief, a liar and a cheat.) + 2) Total Value = $ 11,384,000. (imrich/Tulving) + That's their character]" = unsubstantiatable/untruths?
malicious-aforethought?

JMHO