Tulving in Trouble

Thanks, I did find those and read them.

Quite frankly, it doesn't make sense. Tulving's explanation for the bankruptcy is -- to be perfectly blunt -- 100% crappola. Interest rates are rock-bottom so there's no need to collateralize at any high rate of interest. And you would only do that to EXPAND one's business, not to meet daily operating expenses.

I've never run a business like his, but I do understand financial accounting. If the guy's business was profitable in the past, then with no change in OPEX or revenues/costs, he should be OK if business trends are consistent with the past. We know there was no sudden drop-off in business from what we've read on the Internet.

Gold and silver volatility did have some hiccups, but nothing compared to 2008-09.

So while I am speculating, it seems that something was done -- either orders cancelled when gold/silver moved lower or a position in the futures market -- that was not there in the past.

The fees and interest paid to A-Mark are EXTREMELY HIGH relative to revenues and profits. Straight hedging in the futures market would not have cost as much (i.e., collars) if the firm thought they needed to go in that direction. I have spoken to many other dealers (admittedly smaller) and none find the need to hedge.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

I believe, if you again read the investigators report, all statements are those of the 3rd parties, including "The Tulving records were quite accurate when compared to the proofs of claim", and the DOJ Et Al seized coins which they had appraised at $3M, which an independent defense appraiser stated to be $11,384,000.

I believe the investigator stated he had initially reported assumptions/"theories" and internet speculation of "hedging", which "has been proven wrong". See: "Two Theories Ruled Out". He stated: "Right now, it sounds like it may really boil down to high expenses", and seemingly reluctantly elaborates.

JMHO

 

If have high OPEX, you cut staff. You have fixed and variable costs, the fixed costs are the problem. Those should not relate to the price of gold or silver UNLESS he was taking excess inventory and using it to speculate on the future price -- and this time got burned.

Think about it...what would he need in 2013 that he didn't need in 2003 or 1993 ? Order processing is the same...shipping is the same....phones, staff, real estate needs the same....only thing that might change is an Internet web site and response team vs. 15-20 years ago.

Businesses go out of business for 3 reasons: lack of demand for their product, too much debt, or fraud. There appeared to be good business demand....debt needs should not have increased relative to years ago (unless he chose to take on debt for some hidden purpose)....and fraud is self-explanatory.

The fact that he hasn't offered an explanation along the lines of "business turned down...X, Y, or Z happened.....etc etc." leads me to logically believe he is hiding something he doesn't want divulged.

 

I've seen nothing to validate that "claim" - more like wishful thinking from the Hannes Tulving Fan Club. Very weird to read ANYONE claim this 'Coin Madoff' is honest and upstanding, at this point.

It's a known fact he declared personal bankruptcy 3 times! And because there were outstanding liens, Hannes couldn't even get a personal bank account. (He defrauded and lied to customers back in the 1990s - and never paid those victims back!) Hannes also lied to and defrauded perhaps a thousand or more clients 2012-4, claiming to have "products in stock, mailing within 48 hours" that he had dropped-shipped MONTHS later. Some clients lost EVERYTHING (~$16 million in stolen money) others settled for whatever he offered (one guy took a $30k haircut on his "investment") : just read literally HUNDREDS of complaints against Tulving. These are the facts!

Hannes "a real stand-up guy"? lol Hansie has been in hiding (in North Carolina, apparently) unwilling to face either creditors or law enforcement.

Hanes Tulving is the very definition of criminal, grifter scum.

Let's not play "make-believe." The suggestion Tulving was hedging at A-Mark or borrowing from their Collateral Finance Corporation is ludicrous. Again, he had a terrible rep in the biz - no credit! So he was losing money (I don't know how, the truth will out, etc.) and dipped into the clients' PMs : first Tulving Storage, then stealing-from-Peter-to-pay-Paul on both Buy and Sell sides.

It's in the records. Clients lost nearly $17 million. Epic! It's laughable that anyone would still defend a massive crook like that, now.

 

Sadly, Del Pinto, the bulk of the evidence points to what you posted. Very Sad.....

 

Well, as my life-long friend/ex-wife might say: "don't confuse me with facts, and the published statements of independent investigators. I know what I feel!!"

Just because Hannes came forward of his own volition to work with those requesting his assistance, supplying requested documentation which has seemingly been affirmed accurate/credible by independent analysis, he must be "hiding something" because he hasn't supplied an implausible explanatation.

We should take him to "GITMO"

I'm sorry but I've been a Principal in other similar actions as, See: Northwest Terr. Gold v Com'r Of Revenue. having similar circumstances of government confiscation, and charges.

"Murphy" has and been my life-long hardest working companion. You needn't supply me with your believed unsupported innuendoes. "Crap Happens!!" LOL

 

The Feds haven't filed charges yet. Why are they so slow? They seized his business; IP was already auctioned by the Estate Trustee for $150k to Great Collections.

The coins value debated is just "Presidential Errors" (not bullion) - the DoJ will auction 'em, that'll be what they're worth. $11million? Doubt it.

http://about.ag/pics/bk/TrusteeReport5.pdf

 

IMrich, I'm not asserting that you didn't have some good experiences with the guy. But clearly, many others did NOT.

I understand the legal rationale for keeping quiet, but not releasing any information to clients who trusted you -- while not LEGALLY mandatory -- is important from an ethics and honesty standpoint, IMO.

Something other than "business turned bad" happened here, that's for sure. What, I am not sure. But this wasn't just clients leaving his firm for others, like Blackberry lost business to Samsung and Apple.

 

I'll agree to amicably disagree, as I don't believe he has yet been criminally prosecuted, and found guilty of criminal action.

I've personally been a MAJOR victim of bankruptcy proceedings, where attorneys and the government took the Gold. I got the shaft!

I've great disdain for bankruptcy proceedings, and government confiscation of assets without accountability (e.g. "Structuring" actions).

I'll be the first to admit being wrong if Hannes is found criminally guilty. I don't know my fallibility until an independent adjudication

I apologize if my posts are found more offensive than others.

JMHO

 

About.Ag offers a similar bizarre defense of the Coin Madoff on GIM. 'Poor Hannes! Unfairly accused of fraud!' He offers the fact that Hannes didn't flee to Caymans or wherever as proof of innocence (sorta.) Huh?!

Bernie Madoff didn't flee either. Why? Some sociopaths remain convinced they can continue to game the system, even when caught red-handed.

I'm curious what anyone here thinks the Presidential Error Coins are worth. The DoJ suggested $3 mill., Hansie's lawyer $12 mill. Can we get a better estimate?

~$3.-6. on eBay, net -15% in eBay fees and who would run those auctions for free? Govt auctions take their cut too... I don't imagine the 400 creditors getting much from the coin sale. Best guesstimate?

The 'about 189,000' billon coins seized by the Secret Service have what valu? Feds offered a Fair Market Value of $3,017,718.03

 

Can you provide details ? You may have 'gotten the shaft' as you see it but Bankruptcy Law is a specified code in which secured lenders, unsecured lenders, and customers all have differing priorities to claims. IRS liens, for instance, are almost always at the top of the pecking order.

Again, this may have been mandated by the Code.

I think something like that may come out UNLESS he can prove that a subordinate did something without his knowledge.

Not at all, civil disagreement strengthens debate and is how we all learn. Nothing to apologize for as far as I'm concerned.

Let's keep track of what happens in this case.

 

Perspective? Tulving was one of the Top 5 Bullion Scammers in the USA over the last 35 years or so.
http://about.ag/GoldSilverFraud.htm

In actual losses ($17bln; 63,553 victims) the average Madoff victim loss was $267.5k. Very large clients absorbed over 80% of the losses, however; half lost little in fact. Trustee Picard stated all direct investors with less than $1mln in assets would be "made whole"!

The average Tulving victim loss was ~$38.5k, ~98% are small investors. I believe they will get almost nothing, after lawyer fees and distribution of the crumbs leftover.

 

Good resource, DP. A few scary items popped out:

(1) Why is a Kitco affiliate on this list ? I thought Kitco was one of the bigger online names out there that had a sterling reputation, no ? Usually, parents stand behind their affiliates.

(2) Surprised that someone tied to Gainseville Coins is on that list. I realize it's the father of the current owner but it does cause concern if I want to buy from them. I've seen them at shows in the NY-NJ area and bought small stuff from them before. Should I be worried if I ever decide to go big with them ?

 

GoldFinger1969:

1) I thought Kitco was raided largely to force compliance with FinCen over extraneous caca (similar to eGold?) and that flap was resolved? Customs Canada was throwing jello at the wall, really.

2) I haven't followed that one.

 

Finally convicted: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/tulving-678720-company-coins.html

 

"He was suspected of defrauding clients out of more than $40 million {in 1990}. He settled with the FTC in 1992 and agreed to pay $1.3 million."

Backstory (the truth) to all the "Hannes was a upright guy!" garbage from his shills here: Tulving didn't serve time in 1992, and paid less than 3.5% restitution last time. Justice was not served! And no one cared?
http://articles.latimes.com/1992-06-19/business/fi-556_1_rare-coins

"Tulving faces up to 20 years in prison and $250,000 in fines. He is required to pay restitution to customers as part of the plea agreement. The Tulving Co. faces at least $500,000 in fines, at least one year of organizational probation and is required to pay restitution."

He served no jail time before. Will Hannes be "forced" to pay a pittance to victims, say ~$500k or pennies-on-the-dollar (and most of that going to lawyers) ... only to be allowed to defraud bullionists AGAIN?! Sentencing deserves a post; stay tuned.

"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice ..." whatever. Some people aren't credible, period. There's always another story or excuse to spin.
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/hannes-tulving-slabs.137877/#post-1027677

 

DelPinto, we don't know if the actual loss was equal to or less than $40 MM. May have included 'losses' due to gold bullion or numismatic declines, I don't know.

Clearly, the guy is not on the up-and-up. To what extent, I don't know in terms of $$$.

 

Tulving was a numismatic con-artist, obviously. It's amazing to read CT posters and mods praising his business practices here. Reading last week's CW article, I'll presume $10 mln restitution was something like contemporary Greysheet Bid values, so 4x (+$30mln) would've been the "inflated" Tulving markup. There's no indication "numismatic declines" (1988-1992, say -24%) should be factored if coins were delivered.

I'd love to read a detailed exposé of the complicated 1992 Tulving Fraud/Ponzi - any links? Were those previous customers ever made whole? (That Hannes refused even simple bank accounts in his own name strongly suggests they were NOT.) The mendacity, the outrage, the comedy!

See:
http://www.coinweek.com/bullion-report/coin-dealer-tulving-pleads-guilty-fraud/

"In 1992, Tulving and his prior firm Hannes Tulving Rare Coin Investments, Inc. were investigated by the Federal Trade Commission, which determined that the company had used deceptive marketing practices–including a falsified price guide–to sell coins at inflated prices. The higher prices were part of a Ponzi scheme to pay off previous customers who had been cheated by the company. Tulving declared bankruptcy and agreed to pay $10 million as part of a settlement. The 1992 settlement allowed Tulving to re-enter the coin investment business."

"Tulving currently is free on a $25,000 bond with no sentencing date set." Idiots! Why the kid gloves? I hope they confiscated the crook's passport.

 

CFTC Charges California Resident Hannes Tulving, Jr., through his company, The Tulving Company, Inc., with Misappropriation and Fraudulent Solicitation in a $17.8 Million Precious Metals Scheme
At Least 381 Customers Nationwide Allegedly Defrauded in the Scheme
Washington, DC — The U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) today filed a civil Complaint against Defendants Hannes Tulving, Jr. of Newport Beach, California, and his company, The Tulving Company, Inc., charging them with fraudulent solicitation and misappropriation in connection with the precious metals markets. Neither Defendant has ever been registered with the CFTC.

In its enforcement action, the CFTC alleges that the Defendants fraudulently offered contracts of sale of commodities in interstate commerce, namely, contracts for the sale of gold, silver, platinum, and palladium bullion and coin (precious metals). In offering these contracts, the Defendants obtained and misappropriated at least $17.8 million from at least 381 customers located throughout the United States for the purchase and sale of precious metals, according to the Complaint.

In their solicitations, the Defendants allegedly made false and fraudulent representations, including that The Tulving Company was a highly reputable, stable, and established precious metals firm that delivered precious metals to customers; that it bought and sold in excess of $2.1 billion in precious metals from 1999 through March 2013; and that precious metals were shipped quickly to customers after placement of orders and receipt of customer funds. These representations were false, according to the Complaint.

The Defendants allegedly purchased and sold little or no precious metals with the funds they collected from customers. Instead, according to the Complaint, the Defendants defrauded customers by lying to them and misappropriating their funds for improper and unauthorized uses, including for the Defendants’ own financial benefit.

To conceal their fraud, according to the Complaint, the Defendants made false and/or deceptive statements, including falsely representing that (1) customers owned specific amounts of precious metals when, in fact, they did not, (2) customers holdings in precious metals had significant value when, in fact, the non-existent holdings had no value whatsoever, and (3) customers were realizing profits from their investments when, in fact, no profit whatsoever had been realized.

In its continuing litigation, the CFTC seeks restitution to defrauded customers, disgorgement of ill-gotten gains, a civil monetary penalty, permanent registration and trading bans, and a permanent injunction against future violations of federal commodities laws, as charged.

CFTC Division of Enforcement staff members responsible for this case are Luke B. Marsh, Richard Foelber, Dmitriy Vilensky, and Paul G. Hayeck.

* * * * * *

CFTC’s Precious Metals Customer Fraud Advisory

The CFTC has issued several customer protection Fraud Advisories that provide the warning signs of fraud, including the Precious Metals Fraud Advisory, which alerts customers to precious metals fraud and lists simple ways to spot precious metals scams.

Customers can report suspicious activities or information, such as possible violations of commodity trading laws, to the CFTC Division of Enforcement via a Toll-Free Hotline 866-FON-CFTC (866-366-2382) or file a tip or complaint online.

Media Contact
Dennis Holden
202-418-5088
http://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/pr7228-15

 

Sentenced: http://www.justice.gov/usao-wdnc/pr...metals-dealer-and-his-company-defrauding-over