The legality of owning/selling counterfeits

Years ago I put on a display of antiques and coins in our hometown. The coins consisted of many counterfeits and altered pieces. Next to my display was the Secret Service with their counterfeit paper money. I had a Moon Rock they were watching in my revolving display case. When the week was over the head SS agent took me on the side and said they could confiscate the coins I had on display but they wouldn't because they were being used for educational purposes and I was not selling them. I have consulted for the SS on counterfeit and altered coins and have no problems because everything I do at coin club meetings or shows is for educational purposes. I have bought many counterfeit and altered coins for educational purposes only. ICG does a commendable job of encapsulating Counterfeit and altered coins.

 

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I'm no legal beagle. But, if you wish, TypeCoin971793, you might put this in your pipe and smoke it. "The Trademark Counterfeiting Act of 1984 is a United States federal law that amended the federal criminal code to make it a federal offense to violate the Lanham Act by the intentional use of a counterfeit trademark or the unauthorised use of a counterfeit trademark."

 

The difference between Section 489 and the other statutes is that the former has been interpreted to include coins with only a likeness in general design but that vary sufficiently in detail that they have no serious use for money. That is the current DOJ interpretation. https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1460-counterfeiting-18-usc-489

There is also case law which limits the application, which I'll try to find again later.

 

That is typically the statute used in the currency counterfeiting cases. Sections 485 and 490 are usually used in coinage counterfeiting prosecutions. As another poster noted, all U.S. coins were granted legal tender status under the Coinage Act of 1965. There is case law affirming counterfeiting convictions under Section 485 for old coin designs that no longer circulate in the U.S.

 

A very good topic . I was wondering about my 1865 $2.00 National Currency "Lazy Deuce" Note . PMG said it was Counterfeit when they sent it back "UnGraded" , because it was Counterfeit . They wouldn't even seal it and label it as a bogus note . The Coin shop had no idea and was apologetic and offered to buy it back but I wanted to keep it . I especially enjoy the "Counterfeit Warning" on the Reverse design .
I do wonder sometimes about the $1.00 & $3.00 U.S. Gold pieces I collect . I know China has people making them so I get them from Auction houses and NOT ebay . I do take it seriously since I don't collect certified coins .
I really wanted that "Lazy 2" to be real .

 

More than just China and many of the fakes are real gold.

While the major auction houses like Heritage, Legend, Stacks, Great Collections, David Lawrence etc will certainly give you much more certainty of authenticity, none of those would really sell $1 or $3 gold raw. Smaller or local auction houses really aren't any safer than eBay overall and in some cases can be more dangerous if they're selling them raw.

 

Correct . The larger houses don't , the ones I use list both with items from coin stores . I'm not trying to assemble any sets or anything so the really low mintage and valuable aren't calling my name . I will however invest in a COPY of the $4.00 for obvious reasons .

 

So he was upset over someone using a photograph he owned and was banned for it? Surely there must be more to the story?

 

The word "knowingly" establishes "intent" in regard to "intent to defraud", therefore, a person may only buy, own, pass, or sell a counterfeit if he is unaware of it actually being a counterfeit. "My unprofessional opinion".

 

Intent to defraud means exactly that. You can’t defraud someone selling them something that is exactly what you say it is. If you say it’s a fake and sell them a fake you didn’t defraud anyone as far as intent goes. Defrauding someone requires deception or deceiving someone, not honesty

 

In the eyes of the FBI, knowingly owning, selling, passing, are all considered illegal in regard to counterfeits. You may only buy, own, sell or pass if you are unaware of it being counterfeit.

 

The FBI isn't a court nor have I ever seen an official justice department position on the matter. An agent or a couple agents may feel that way but again that doesn't mean a court necessarily would.

Regardless of it being illegal or not the legal definition of fraud requires deceit or deception, you cannot defraud someone by being honest regardless if the act is legal or not. Selling heroin is illegal but if you tell someone it's heroin you aren't defrauding them, but if you tell them that it's a flu shot you are defrauding them.

 

Well, I'm no Attorney or otherwise, but when I bought a Trade Dollar a couple of years ago and sent it to ANACS and it came back in a body bag, I had two choices, as explained to me by ANACS...either send it back for a refund, which I did, or send it to the Fed. The dealer didn't know it was fake. In my case, keeping it would mean being out some money and potential future legal trouble. I was advised that dealing with fakes in any way was not an option.

 

That's too bad,

 

Whether or not something is legal and whether or not someone was defrauded are two separate issues.

As mentioned before any time you talk to a LEO or corporation they're going to give you the answer that protects them the best. Plenty of corporations have policies that protect themselves even though the action is perfectly legal. For example eBay bans all Cuban coins even though they're perfectly legal as long as you aren't importing them.

The only place to get a concrete answer is from a court, the next best thing would be a specialty lawyer that represents you. Corporate lawyers will have them say whatever protects the corporation the best

 

I don't really have much to add that I didn't post in 2013. Owning a counterfeit coin in the United States is a legal impossibility.

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/owning-counterfeit-money.240150/#post-1835091

For those of you posting pictures of your "questionable" coins, you should be aware that a Treasury agent could, at any time, demand that you surrender the objects to them. For something like an "Omega" piece, you can likely, with work, get compensated for the gold value. See:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/492

 

The rest of the story was he threatened to sue CT and possibly Peter over the matter. You threaten to sue the forum you are posting on it should be no surprise when you get banned.

 

Agreed. This place appears to be super tolerant. You literally need to make it a federal case (or threaten one) to be shown the door. I for one will not miss his obnoxious posts or his litigiousness.