The Collapse of NORFED premiums on eBay

I still have mine. I'm not selling. It's very interesting watching where all this is going.

 

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Exactly this, jloring! Norfeds have NO legitimate venue for sale anymore - so it's a race-to-scrap here on out.

Norfeds are arguably coin and/or bullion. And bullion with numismatic value is still bullion.
But most importantly, the "investing" premise for this product has now died: charted by market trend (premium collapse) in November 2012.

"This thread doesn't belong here!" is just a 'wah-wah-wah I don't like what I'm reading' whinge, not a valid critique of any merit whatsoever. This thread is ALL ABOUT bullion investing - and WHERE & WHEN SMART MONEY BAILS on a mistake! Arguably, smart money NEVER touched Norfeds: first it was a ponzi currency scheme, THEN a fringe/cult collectible marketed to the gullible.

The ponzi is self-evident in their marketing materials: http://aldbook.wikispaces.com/Why+should+my+business+accept+the+Liberty+Dollar

Collectible? Mintages are publicly unknown, yet many coins were described as "lowest mintage" "scarce" or "Extremely rare." Just like Beanie Babies! I'm still curious how big this 'bullion' market ever was. How many Silver ounces (incl fractionals) were minted? Best info I could find was this: http://osdir.com/ml/finance.gold-silver-crypto/2007-12/msg00170.html

It seems LDG had minted only ~ 90,000 ozt Ag by 2004, but (extrapolated from Notthouse's own comments to the bullionist) "It is certainly easy for me to believe that two or three million ounces of silver and perhaps two or three thousand ounces of gold pieces and perhaps a few thousands of copper pieces have been placed into circulation by the Liberty Dollar group."

If that's true, most "low mintage" coins repeatedly seen in past eBay auctions (2005, 2006, 2007 issues) are in no way scarce.

Federal affidavits and NORFED statements declare $21,000,000.00 in ALD currency was in circulation. Liberty Dollar affilate sites still pretend "every certificate sold had the silver it represented stored in an independently run and audited warehouse at Sunshine Mint. The certificates were redeemable in actual silver or gold as denoted on the certificate." But at the time of the seizure NORFED only held 158,412.5 ozt @ USD$15.34/ozt. ($ 2,430,047.70) of Silver and 96 ozt of gold at a spot price of $ 846.50 valued at $ 81,264.00.

The ponzi had unraveled with the bust: Norfed didn't have enough bullion to back it's promissory paper. Like Bernie Made-off (with milllions) Bernie Nuthouse was a fraud from the get-go. EOS.


Undoubtedly, random Norfeds will pop up from time to time, dodging netnanny in illicit trade. See iOffer.com (dated entries! dodgy vendors?) : http://www.ioffer.com/search/items/Norfed
That doesn't make it a "good investment" though. Caveat emptor!

 

Your fundamental problem, aside from not citing any laws that make holding this coin illegal, is that you also assume that eBay and online coins dealers are the end all in coin resales. Since you never answered the questions about owning one of these coins or even going to a coins show, then I assume you have no practical experience in the hobby/investment. Instead you make conclusions based on web links taken out of context, with no context and while make endless fallacious arguments.

The fact of the matter, IMO, the vast majority of numismatic coin sales take place off the grid in coin shops, coin shows, PM bourses, and even pawn shops. The reason for this is the coin buyer prefers to directly examine the coin before purchase and to haggle the price. Furthermore, important to some, there are no paper records. You have no idea how many liberty coins are traded this way and this is where real market demand will be found.

So your conclusions that demand for the liberty dollar have crashed are wrong. You simply don't know. This is backed up by the fact that you can't argue the point without posting endless web links that nobody will bother to read. It's the hallmark of someone who is talking about something they no nothing about.

 

The "rarest" Norfeds have really wiped out coinvestor value. The Numbered Norfed Euro 1 ozt is one of the biggest losers, apparently.

9/8/2009: USD $150. SOLD on eBay 2008 NORFED EURO NUMBERED 70 OF 100 MINTED .999 SILVER! (#320407608821)
12/4/2009: USD$ 50. Sold on eBay.de 2008 Liberty Euro 20 Euros Norfed, Liberty Dollar Mint (Nr.330382338564)

10/12/2010: USD $255. SOLD on eBay NORFED Liberty Euro #50 (#250699352660)

8/27/2011: $1,400. Purported Value (2Q 2011?) Liberty Euro
http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-13835-norfed-lovers-stackers-space.html

10/25/2011: $100,000. ASK: NOT SOLD Liberty Euro #58
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIBERTY-DOLLAR-NORFED-NUMBERED-SILVER-LIBERTY-EURO-058-STAGGERINGLY-RARE-/200665097088

1/25/2012: USD$ 1,500. Ask & Sold on CT! Liberty Euro
http://www.cointalk.com/t199343/

2/16/2012: USD$ 1,500. Ask & Sold on ebay Liberty Euro (from Liberty Dollar) Norfed VERY RARE! (Only 100 made!)

March/April 2012: USD$ 2,500. Reported Sold. Liberty Euro

12/15/2012: $3,000. ASK: NOT SOLD Liberty Euro #46
http://www.ebay.com/itm/46-NUMBERED-ORIGINAL-2008-NORFED-LIBERTY-EURO-/230892710297?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c2472999

12/17/2012: $ ???. Most Recent Sale? Anyone? Bueller?




fwiw you can commiserate with others here:
http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-13835-norfed-lovers-stackers-space-page-15.html

 

TULIP MANIA!! I watched Wallstreet: Money Never Sleeps also...

 

Exactly. He's talking out of his backside. Everyone is quite aware that the market for Norfeds may go down at some point but blanco says it's happening right now and it's simply not true. They are still up in price and demand. Now, once the Secret Service identifies which ones are counterfeit and which ones are ok to keep then we will know more. I have no plans on getting rid of mine at all and will pick some more up soon, if I am able. With all this fear mongering going on I will sit out this thread as j. blanco does not deserve my time or typing. Arato ChingaRato!!

 

Seriously, you are breaking out the tulip bulb chart????? How quaint......

 

I noticed that the Central States Numismatic Convention has now banned the sale of these items, on their bourse floor, in their up coming spring show in Chicago. They will not allow exhibts with them displayed either.

 

http://www.coinweek.com/education/central-states-convention-bans-liberty-dollars/

 

So the major dealers refused to buy/sell Norfeds (proven by survey.)
Then SS starts seizing the coins, and well-know LCSs take down listings (local report, also evident online.)
Now banned by a major trade group at sponsored events, etc. (latest development.)

The dominoes are falling faster now.

From the Coinweek link:

In a matter of weeks, any legitimate market (for millions of these Norfed coins) vaporized: SELL WHILE YOU STILL CAN. Or is it already too late, even for CL?
Oh well. There's always the next garage sale.

At least in the Beanie Baby racket, there was never a govt decree of contraband nor any threat of penalty. http://consumerist.com/2009/05/15/beanie-baby-futures-slightly-better-investment-than-bernie-madoff/

 

473 does not apply but 492 forfeiture of counterfeit paraphernalia, does apply. Paraphrased it states that all counterfeits found in possession of anyone without authority from the Sec of the Treasury shall be forfeited to the United States. Failure to turn them over is punishable by fine and/or imprisonment.

The Sec 489 he mentioned makes possession of counterfeits illegal. But it only applies to counterfeits of US or foreign coins. So it would only apply if the court decision finds the Norfeds to be counterfeit US coins. Which since he was found guilty of counterfeiting I supposed they did.

Neither section contains that the requirement that there be intent to defraud. Sec 473 does require that there be intent that they be used as and money

which is why I said that sec 473 does not apply.

Neither sec 489 or 492 require there to be any intent to defraud.

Sec 489
Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either under the authority of the United States or under the authority of any foreign government shall be fined under this title.

Note no "intent to defraud" and mere possession is good enough to be fined. I admit I am assuming that collecting could be interpreted as "in any other manner using the same"

Sec 492
All counterfeits of any coins or obligations or other securities of the United States or of any foreign government, or any articles, devices, and other things made, possessed, or used in violation of this chapter or of sections 331–333, 335, 336, 642 or 1720, of this title, or any material or apparatus used or fitted or intended to be used, in the making of such counterfeits, articles, devices or things, found in the possession of any person without authority from the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer, shall be forfeited to the United States.

Whoever, having the custody or control of any such counterfeits, material, apparatus, articles, devices, or other things, fails or refuses to surrender possession thereof upon request by any authorized agent of the Treasury Department, or other proper officer, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.

The loophole in this could be the request by an authorized agent part. Does the request have to be individual? Or can it be a general request stating that they are illegal and need to be turned in?

 

Conder101-
I'm not sure who that long (and very informative) post is directed at, but this particular bit before your loophole comment caught my eye:

Now I draw your attention to the 'Norfed Silver Stacker' link below, briefly describing the suicide of Jeff Kotchounian (Deerfield Chiropractic in Lapeer Co. Michigan) on Friday June 1, 2012.
http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-13835-norfed-lovers-stackers-space-page-11.html

Jeff was very public online & in the MSM for both his business trade/sale of Norfeds and his professional acceptance of Norfeds. On that fateful Friday, Jeff was visited by IRS CID and/or Secret Service, several hours before he committed suicide. Off-the-record, local sheriff's office was told "Ongoing Federal investigation trumps even your death investigation."

Of this incident, his friend Dave Gillie - another major Norfed dealer - concluded "There has to be much more to this than we know now, we may never know the full truth." Jeff's website is still up (defunct) but his eBay store was taken down. Pffft, nada. He was a very big trader of Norfeds, as you can see for yourself on that link/thread.

Don't know anything about the other earlier Norfed dealer/suicide ("KarlR") mentioned by Dave Gillie. But some avid collectors - sitting on HUGE spec Norfed hoards? - have paid a very dear price indeed. Not suggesting any conspiracy here, but this doesn't look like a total coincidence either.

I suspect that Jeff Kotchounian got a visit from the Secret Service, about his Norfeds, on that fateful day. Dave Gillie suggests as much, implicitly.

Presume the Norfed collectible market peaked sometime ~late May 2012 or thereabouts. Suicides (or attempted suicides) of key players and 'those in too deep' are often the tipping point for bubbles/manias/ponzis/frauds/etc. (Russell Wasendorf is only the most recent famous example which springs to mind.)
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/a4e46d74-cd16-11e1-92c1-00144feabdc0.html

 

Wow, someone just got a verbal slapping like no other. lmao!!!

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/...ty-dollars-fights-forfeiture-of-coins-silver/