Ted Butler Article on Silver Manipulation

Discussion in 'Bullion Investing' started by Cloudsweeper99, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 Treasure Hunter

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  3. Juan Blanco

    Juan Blanco New Member

  4. fatima

    fatima Junior Member

    Battle of the web links.

    :yawn:
     
  5. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 Treasure Hunter

    At least one of them will be wrong.
     
  6. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 Treasure Hunter

  7. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Sorry to sound harsh, but looks like Idiots on Parade.

    Third guy from www.goldenjackass.com, (appropriate), stating "immutable economic laws that are self evident", yet in his bio states he is "unemcumbered by the limitations of economics credentials". Kind of self evident there.

    Ted Butler, yeah well he is what he is. Anyone ever consider how much more likely of a conspiracy theory it is that HE is the conspirist, paid by silver owners to convince the world silver is more valuable than it really is? That is a lot more believable than the huge conspiracy theory he projects. Really, please, can someone tell me of a real conspiracy theory involving large numbers of people that has been kept secret for decades? There is always a whistleblower. His demands about the bank answer his claims of manipulation, and making a case they must be true since they do not respond. Really? Who the heck are goofy conspiracy theorists, and why the HECK do they think they have the right to hear the inner workings of a business. It is very possible these "massive short positions" are on behalf of customers, and Ted Butler should go pound sand since he has no right to demand trade secrets from a corporation. He has made accusations for a long time not knowing tons of information, yet refuses to ackowledge the fact its POSSIBLE for his "facts" to still be legal.

    Second link a little more believable but I always try to ignore stories from "a friend who is now dead once told me......." Most of the time such stories are "problematic".

    Still, interesting links, and I thank everyone who posted them. Always good to hear the conspiracy from the horse's mouth so you recognize it when others repeat it. Problem with conspiracy theories is they CAN become true. Not because they ARE true, but if enough people believe them, and act on them, they might as WELL be true. That is the main reason I do try to keep up on them.

    Chris
     
  8. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Another way to illustrate Mr. Butler's argument in a different industry:

    I have been writing on internet blogs and fringe newspapers for over a decade, and yet, despite all of this the Coca Cola company STILL refuses to answer. I have stated over and over again how the reactions of humans after they drink Coca Cola PROVES BEYOND A DOUBT there is rat poison in Coca Cola. I therefor have to assume their silence on this issue is proof there is rat poison in Coca Cola, but the company just is trying to silence me and keep this information from getting out.

    Yes, I know there has been investigation in response to my assertions, and all of these investigations have turned up nothing, but lets look at these "investigations". I have went to all of the buildings in which these "investigations" took place, and you know what? ALL of them have COKE MACHINES! Coincidence? I will let my readers decide.

    After seeing how important a man I am on the internet, the company continues its stonewall. All it would take would be for them to show me their formula for Coca Cola, to show me they do not put rat poison in there, yet they continue to ignore such an obvious solution. All they say is Coca Cola is "safe", and is "inspected" by Federal authorities. If its so "safe" then what is the harm of showing ME, someone I KNOW is not part of this conspiracy, the formula. The obvious answer is they CAN'T, and this fact PROVES there is rat poison in Coca Cola.



    I could go on, but my sarcasm muscle is too tired today.
     
  9. Juan Blanco

    Juan Blanco New Member

    Re: the Goldenjackass
    Personally, in addition to lappin' up 'my dead neighbor's cousin said...' stories, I have a periodic fondess for websites designed in the 1990s and a webpage with 5-8 different fonts. Visually, I'm clued in immediately exactly what to expect. Also, Jim Willie is the bleeding edge, LOL: WHEN "it" finally happens, he'll finally get to say I-told-ya-so.
     
  10. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 Treasure Hunter

    I personally like conspiracy theories -- not because they are all or mostly true, but because any really new and valuable information might start as a conspiracy theory. Peak oil is one I have great fondness for because it made me a lot of money after I first read about it when oil prices were in the $20's. I suppose the Manhattan Project and other military secrets are evidence that projects involving large numbers of people can be kept secret for a long time. I remember when anyone who said they believed in the Council on Foreign Relations were thought to be conspiracy theorists. Now, the president of the CFR is on TV almost every day. You never know who will turn out to be right, so it is dangerous [or at least unprofitable] to dismiss them outright. Much of history was a conspiracy at the time. I suppose many in Parliment believed that the stories about subversive groups in the American colonies planning to declare independence from Britain were mere conspiracy theories. You just never know.
     
  11. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I agree secrets can be kept, and nearly posted about this, but the example you had was a state secret due to enemy action.

    Keeping a "conspiracy" a secret, something everyone who knows it knows it is wrong, is a lot different than keeping military projects secret for the betterment of all citizens. Its the illegality amongst all conspirators that trips up conspiracies. One of them eventually has to clear their consciounce, or rat the others out to save their own hide.

    You think peak oil theory was a conspiracy theory?
     
  12. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 Treasure Hunter


    I think there was enough written against peak oil at the time to consider it a conspiracy theory. The thinking back then was that there were many decades of oil production growth ahead to keep the price low.

    I don't think right and wrong and conscience have anything to do with conspiracy theories. I think it's safe to say that folks deeply involved in the conspiracies do not consider that they are doing anything wrong. [Except maybe the Mafia which at one time was a conspiracy theory]. So if central banks manipulate the gold price, or large banks the silver price, or Goldman Sachs the stock market, I'll bet they believe they are, as Lloyd Blankfein said, "doing God's work."
     
  13. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I guess we just disagree to a degree. To me, what I classify "conspiracy theories" is akin to what I wrote about in post #7.
     
  14. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 Treasure Hunter

    Of course there are always silly season articles about Coke and Area 51. People tend to forget about the once silly conspiracies that subsequently become reality. No article should be taken at face value, but when I read non-mainstream articles that might turn into an investment thesis, I use it as a starting point for additional investigation. It was probably some conspiracy theory articles about gold and silver that led me to investigate them in 2003-4; I don't recall now. I didn't invest because of the articles, but because of the research that grew out of them.
     
  15. InfleXion

    InfleXion Wealth Preserver

    The key premise behind Butler's thinking is not that a massive short position exists, but that it is concentrated by a single entity. It is the concentration that raises red flags, but that proves nothing. I think many get the wrong idea that he is calling out the size of the position which is not as relevant. This however is not a conspiracy theory. The conspiracy theory comes in when trying to explain such a concentration.
     
  16. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    But has anyone who believes this is a "red flag" done the research and looked at other markets? All markets have a market maker who by their definition create the shorts to liquify the market. This same market maker is who is approached to hedge physical supplies people own versus volatility.

    If I owned a million ounces of silver, and have no plans to sell it, the only way to have this asset kick off an income stream is to lease it out. Who would I lease it out to? The market maker of the silver market.

    If anyone doesn't understand what I just wrote, they do not understand commodity markets. If they don't understand commodity markets, then they have no right to comment on the silver market intelligently. If they do understand the last paragraph, then this could potentially explain the large position. The point is we do not know the extent of this activity because we HAVE NO RIGHT TO KNOW. This is private information, confidential business information, and the only alternative is to trust the regulators that they have seen what is going on under confidentially agreements, and have agreed no laws are being broken. I am not saying the regulators are geniuses, foolproof, or even that I particularly LIKE the situation, but it is what it is.

    If you disagree, I guess you can consider me to be part of the "conspiracy" then. IDK, maybe I am being paid to post here.

    Edit: Btw, I wasn't directing the "doesn't understand commodity markets" at anyone at this board per se. It was a general comment about those who say a short position by itself has to "prove" something. Like much in life, its way more complicated than that.
     
  17. InfleXion

    InfleXion Wealth Preserver

    As I understand it, and admittedly this is secondhand information, there is no market with a more concentrated position than the silver market. I am certainly open to more details. Could this simply mean that silver has the most physical bulls who need hedging? I don't know.
     
  18. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Or it could mean its the thinnest traded market in terms of using the market for physical hedging, but because of the nature of silver as an investment metal has an unusual appetite for people wishing to buy physical silver for the PM aspect of it.

    Just my take on it. As you say yourself, silver is an unusual metal, half industrial half financial. In my mind that makes its market weird, the industrial side uses it for hedging like pork bellies, but investors are unusually attracted to it as well.

    This very well could make silver one of the most unusual markets around, even without anyone breaking any laws. ;)

    Simply put, the market maker will create derivitives to buy as long as there are buyers. That is their job. If tons of people suddenly wake up and have a burning desire to buy pork bellies as a hedge against something, pork bellies could very well become the most concentrated short position by whomever is ITS market maker.
     
  19. fatima

    fatima Junior Member

    Silver & Gold futures are not traded on the Chicago commodity markets like standard commodities nor the Nymex industrial metals market like standard industrial metals. Instead, Gold and Silver futures have their own unique market, the Comex, with special rules that only apply to them. The Comex specifically takes into account the monetary aspects of these metals.

    People (not saying you) often get into trouble when trying to explain Gold & Silver futures trading because they don't understand this fundamental difference. It's nothing like the trading of pork bellies. Anecdotes to such commodities are logical non sequitur yet it's very common on Coin Talk for such comparisons to be made as absolute fact.

    Because of these differences, it's possible for positions to be taken that don't reflect the reality of supply which are not possible with standard commodities like corn, pork bellies or anything else grown or dug up and consumed. Only strict enforcement of rules, regulations and financial laws make sure this doesn't happen. Now we all know how this works with the finance industry of late. So no conspiracy theories, no tin foil, no umbrellas, no chicken little. It's a question of financial abuse, nothing more, nothing less.
     
  20. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 Treasure Hunter


    This is my understanding too. :eek:

    Also, I believe there are no market makers for gold and silver as COMEX or CFTC regulations prohibit it. At least I've read that but never personally verified it.
     
  21. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    So what are the differences? What makes these markets SO much different than a bond, stock, or commodity market? I was picking on commodity, (pork bellies), for humor, substitute any other thing people buy and sell on a market. Explain to me HOW PM is such a unique thing.

    Btw Cloud, "market maker" does not have to be spelled out. Anyone who is the predominant trader in an asset, the main bearer of risk on both sides of a trade, is the "market maker" in effect. I was not specifically referring to othe aspects of specifically identified market makers like the ability to see who is buying and selling what, I was referrign in general to the fact in most markets there is one entity that provides the majority of the liquidity to the market. They specialize in this market, and as such gets most inquiries by those wishing to participate in it.
     
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