Source coin of the Carisius counterfeits?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Johnnie Black, Aug 21, 2018.

  1. Johnnie Black

    Johnnie Black Neither Gentleman Nor Scholar Supporter

    I’ve only been collecting ancients for a little over 1 year. In that time I’ve seen a few counterfeit coins pointed out by this great forum with the Carisius denarius probably the most frequent or at least the most memorable for me. That offcenter obverse with bankers mark on the cheek, damage around 10 o clock, and weakly struck reverse with a grainy surface was often noticeable right away.

    Doug Smith’s great photo was quickly burned into my mind. Thanks @dougsmit
    DA9385ED-6289-4B4D-9488-0B655BEF722E.jpeg

    One day I’m on eBay and see what is a similar coin in an NGC slab. I remembered that it was mentioned here that a cast fake had possibly slipped through and been graded by NGC because it had all of the characteristics.

    D1298435-4D5E-4E41-9F66-6B865180B4F0.jpeg

    I thought it might be fun to have a black cabinet coin that was still in a slab so I made the move.

    Only a week earlier I had held a same strike cast fake of the Carisius at a local shop and it was highly polished looking almost washed out. Immediately noticeable as “off” to these newbie eyes. Once this one arrived though I noticed some nice toning and a little more detail.

    F23AAEF5-E8A2-4160-8585-97923F92DBBA.jpeg

    6E2D1349-9AB6-4C0F-A840-91BEA96ECBCB.jpeg

    Well, I started second guessing myself. Was this real or just a really nice cast fake with some deceptive toning? I sent an email to David Sear showing these pics compared to Doug’s cast fake pic.

    Mr. Sear thought the cast could have come from the slabbed coin, but wouldn’t know without examination. Even then for a thorough exam it would really need to be cracked out, but he could take a look in the slab anyway. At this point I was really interested to have Mr. Sear offer his feedback so off it went.

    The coin arrived here yesterday.

    FE7E6DF7-0B5C-42B5-884A-E02920504D49.jpeg
    D90E8464-F008-41E9-B3D4-294D4F6AAD54.jpeg

    Although I’m not a huge fan of grading ancients for my personal collection, and assuming this is the source coin, I think I will leave this one slabbed. In prison, if you will, for crimes against numismatics. An unwilling participant however many years ago, but an accomplice nonetheless, now locked away to do no more harm.
     
    Andres2, Ed Snible, TheRed and 19 others like this.
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  3. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    I believe this is one coin that does need to be left in the slab. If it it the genuine mother coin, it needs to be told from the copies; if it is a fake, it needs to be left with no doubt that the coin is the one certified by NGC and David Sear, Either way, the coin has greater numismatic value in slab than a similar genuine coin.
     
  4. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    I've seen too many fakes of this coin. I remain skeptical but I hope it is genuine. I want to believe mine is genuine, but I will always have my doubts. T Carisius.jpg
     
    Andres2, Alegandron, galba68 and 6 others like this.
  5. Johnnie Black

    Johnnie Black Neither Gentleman Nor Scholar Supporter

    I completely understand the skepticism. It’s a unique situation. On one hand you have NGC and Sear stating authentic. On the other hand all those similar cast fakes scream counterfeit.
     
  6. Gavin Richardson

    Gavin Richardson Well-Known Member

    Can someone educate me on why this particular RR coin is so desirable that it would be a common counterfeit?
     
  7. Sulla80

    Sulla80 one coin at a time Supporter

    A one year delayed response: this coin showing the tools used to make coins is perhaps among collectors of ancient coins, particularly interesting. With "Juno Moneta" on the reverse linked to English words like "money", and "monetary"...and for it's date of 46BC from the turbulent last years of the Roman republic...more in my recent thread.
     
  8. Johnnie Black

    Johnnie Black Neither Gentleman Nor Scholar Supporter

    Here we are a year later and I’m still trying to get my hands on a raw counterfeit to keep with this slabbed coin for comparison. There’s one counterfeit on eBay currently being sold as real for over $300. The seller isn’t interested in selling for it’s true value despite me pointing out the issues.
     
    Curtisimo and Sulla80 like this.
  9. Johnnie Black

    Johnnie Black Neither Gentleman Nor Scholar Supporter

    I believe the dies used on this legitimate Carisius Moneta coin are also the same dies associated with the counterfeit. So the counterfeits do come from a coin that had legit dies, but I'm not so sure I have that mother coin.

    The same legit coin sold through Numismatica Ars Classica in 2006 and 2009.

    2006
    [​IMG]

    2009
    [​IMG]

    I think the E in MONETA helps match the obverse to the cast fake, and how a wisp of hair nearly touch the O. On the reverse the direction the coin implements are pointing and spacing of T. CARISIVS help match. I would do the overlay trick for comparison but I'm not savvy enough.

    [​IMG]

    I'm still investigating to see if my NGC coin is legitimate. I now have a cast fake in hand and when comparing the two together I'm skeptical that I actually have the mother coin slabbed. The die axis on the slabbed coin is exactly the same as the counterfeit.
     
    Bing likes this.
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