Bankers' Marks & Juno Moneta

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Sulla80, Aug 15, 2019 at 11:41 PM.

  1. Sulla80

    Sulla80 one coin at a time Supporter

    Bankers' marks were a way to distinguish official coinage from counterfeit, and perhaps had other purposes that are lost (at least to me). While I don't know why this coin was marked, I am glad that the marks made this particular coin less desirable to some potential auction bidders.

    The obverse shows Juno Moneta and the reverse, tools used to make coins: tongs, anvil, garlanded die (or perhaps the cap of Vulcan) and a hammer. There are bankers' marks on both sides, and in both cases, as I see it, they do not interfere with the main elements. The one on the reverse almost looks like another tool that belongs there.
    T Carisius celator.jpg
    T. Carisius, 46 BC, AR Denarius, Rome mint
    Obv: Head of Juno Moneta right; MONETA to left
    Rev: Implements for coining money: anvil die with garlanded punch die above, tongs and hammer on either side; all within laurel wreath.
    Ref: Crawford 464/2; CRI 70; Sydenham 982b; Carisia 1b
    Size: 18mm, 3.83 gm

    Little is known about the moneyer, Crawford notes that he is perhaps the Carisius mentioned by Appian:
    "Octavian placed all of his infantry under charge of Cornificius, and ordered him to drive back the enemy and do whatever the exigency required. He himself took ship before daylight and went seaward lest the enemy should enclose him on this side also, giving the right wing of the fleet to Titinius and the left to Carisius, and embarking himself on a liburnian, with which he sailed around the whole fleet, exhorting them to have courage."
    - Appian Civil Wars 5.112


    A temple to Juno Moneta (Juno "the Advisor" or "Warner") was dedicated on the Capitoline Hill in 344 BC where the house of Manlius Capitollinus had stood. L Furius Camillus had made a promise to build a temple to Juno Moneta during a battle with in 345 with the Aurunci. This is not the only story about the origins: Valerius Maximus (1.8.3), describes a temple promised by Marcus Furius Camillus, after the capture of Veii in 396 BC.

    The Temple to Juno moneta housed the Roman mint, as well as archives and standards. The word moneta became associated with the coins and the root of our word money. The site where it once stood, is today the site of the Basilica di Santa Maria in Aracoeli.

    FYI - an interesting article on the origins, and significance of Moneta and the siting of the mint of Rome: Moneta and the Monuments: Coinage and Politics in Republican Rome by Andrew Meadows and Jonathan Williams, Department of Coins and Medals, The British Museum, Journal of Roman Studies, Volume 9, November 2001, pp. 27-49.


    Post your coins with bankers marks, coins with Moneta, or anything else that you find interesting or entertaining.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019 at 8:14 AM
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  3. Shea19

    Shea19 Supporter! Supporter

    Very nice...love the “tools of the trade” reverse.


    I’ve always liked the banker’s mark on this one.
    734DC3FE-4252-4A48-9702-D0799668E36B.jpeg
    Man. Aemilius Lepidus, AR Denarius, Rome, (18 mm, 3.88g)
    Laureate and diademed head of Roma right; behind star (mark of value)/ REV. MN•AEMILIO, Equestrian statue right on pedestal with three arches, L-E-P between the arches
     
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  4. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ..i have several with many, but this is the latest...:) friggy 010.JPG friggy 009.JPG L. Piso Frugi, 90 BC
     
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  5. rrdenarius

    rrdenarius non omnibus dormio Supporter

    I think this one has interesting marks. I wonder if the W is a counter mark or a banker's mark.
    DSCN0588.JPG
    DSCN0589.JPG
     
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  6. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ...i got one similar early on with that type of countermark on one of my purchases :p Tyche Gally Ae Greek porvincial 001.JPG
     
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  7. Roerbakmix

    Roerbakmix Well-Known Member

    I like this coin a lot, mostly due to the banker marks. This coin was clearly used for quite some time, showing wear, but still staying within the normal range (5.5-5.7 g). On top of that, it's the oldest coin in my collection. It's so small, but still quite heavy; a 'little drop of silver history'.

    I read somewhere that the incuse mark of the reverse in Sigloi was actually caused by the minter removing some material to reach the desired weight. I just like to image, someone ca. 2500 years ago, chiseling some silver out of this coin :)

    imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-OXEiWQxb6cCJWOHU.jpg
    AR Siglos (Type IIIb (early). Xerxes I - Darius II, c. 485 - 420 BC.) Sardis mint. Possibly introduced in connection with the accession of Xerxes.
    Obs: Kneeling-running figure of the Great King right, transverse spear with point downward in right, bow in left, bearded, crowned. Drapery with naturalistic fold over the advanced left knee. Central banker mark.;
    rev: Incuse, with four bankers marks: at 9'o clock nr 71/72, at 6'o clock nr 46, at 3'o clock nr. 47; central nr. 1, as published by George F. Hill in the British Museum Catalog, volume on Persia, p. cxxxvii (found here: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Siglos)
    Weight: 5.5g; Ø:1.2cm
    Catalogue:
    Acquired: 27-04-2019
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019 at 3:26 AM
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  8. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    yeah, a collection shouldn't been w/o a couple of Siglos Roermakmix. esp. with bankersmarks.:) Persian Siglos 001.JPG Persian Siglos 002.JPG
     
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  9. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana Supporter

    That's a beautiful Carisius, @Sulla80. I didn't even notice the bankers' marks, to be honest.

    Here's a Mussidius Longus with a bunch of bankers' marks. To add insult to injury, it even looks like it was thrown into the Cloaca Maxima at some point in its life. :shame:

    RR - L Mussidius Longus Venus Cloacina 3512.jpg
    ROMAN REPUBLIC
    AR Denarius. 3.64g, 18.3mm. Rome mint, 42 BC. L. Mussidius Longus, moneyer. Crawford 494/42b; Sydenham 1093a. O: Diademed and veiled head of Concordia right; star below chin. R: Shrine of Venus Cloacina: Circular platform surmounted by two statues of the goddess, each resting right hand on cippus, the platform inscribed CLOACIN and ornamented with trellis-pattern balustrade, flight of steps and portico on left.
     
  10. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus Supporter

    Here is my favourite with a banker's mark. Julius Caesar

    jc joined.jpg
     
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  11. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

  12. Ryro

    Ryro You'll never be lovelier than you are now... Supporter

    Excellent "Tools of the trade"! Mark me jealous:facepalm:
    Though I don't enjoy bankers marks like I do counter marks. I do enjoy the price breaks that come with them:)
    42E06093-709F-412D-9205-3E3BDE4E87F6.png

    M. Atilius Saranus
    148 BC. Rome Denarius AR
    16mm., 3,48g.
    Helmeted head of Roma right, behind, SARAN and below chin, X / The Dioscuri galloping right, below horses, M ATILI and in exergue, ROMA.
    nearly very fine.
    Babelon Atilia 8; Sydenham 398b; RBW 905; Crawford 214/1b. Former Savoca

    773D0EC4-3D15-4D00-A56A-E01AEE3F5D20.png
    C. Postumius
    At or Ta, Denarius, Rome, 74 BC; AR (g 3,56; mm 18; h 5); Draped bust of Diana r., with bow and quiver over shoulder, Rv. Hound running r.; below, spear; in ex. C POSTVMI / AT (or TA). Crawford 394/1a; Postumia 9; Sydenham 785. Excellent "old cabinet" toning
     
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  13. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    Some of my BANKERS MARKS

    India Matsya AR Vimsatika 650-600 BC stamped bankers.jpg
    India Matsya AR Vimsatika 650-600 BC stamped bankers mark on reverse.


    upload_2019-8-16_13-31-10.png
    RImp Marc Antony 32-31 BCE AR Legio X Equestris - Caesar Denarius B bankers mark Eagle Galley Standards


    upload_2019-8-16_13-31-59.png
    Persia Achaemenid Type III spear over shoulder Darius I to Xerxes II Ca 485-420 BCE AR Siglos Bankers Marks Incuse rev


    Egypt Ptolemy I Soter Tet Delta bankers marks.jpg
    Egypt Ptolemy I Soter Tet Delta bankers marks


    Athens Owl 16.8g  22x6-5mm Late Classical 393-300 BC, Sear 2537, SNG Cop. 63.jpg
    Athens Owl 16.8g 22x6-5mm Late Classical 393-300 BC, Sear 2537, SNG Cop. 63
     
  14. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ...O i love(and want:p) that coin z....:)lovely!...
     
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  15. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing Supporter

    This is the only one I have that has banker's marks (rather then c/m's):

    [​IMG]
    Augustus, Ruled 27 BC-14 AD
    AR Denarius, Struck 19-18 AD, Uncertain mint in Spain, possibly Colonia Caesaraugusta.

    Obverse: CAESAR AVGVSTVS, bare head right.
    Reverse: OB CIVIS / [SERVATOS], oak wreath with ties upward.
    References: RIC I 40a
    Size: 17mm, 3.68g
    Ex: Ancient and Medieval Coins Canada, Auction 1, Lot #166 (12/1/2018)
    Ex: CT Member @Severus Alexander
    Notes: Banker’s mark (“F”) in left field of obverse, traces of gilding and mount (12 o’clock on obverse). The reverse depicts the oak wreath, the Corona Civica, awarded to Augustus by the Senate for having saved the Republic. (Somewhat ironic!) At the time of issue, Augustus was pursuing vigorous military policy in Spain; in 19 BCE the Cantabrians, from the northernmost coast, were brought under Roman control. 18 BCE saw the first of Augustus’s infamous moral laws, the Leges Iuliae.
     
  16. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    MONETA


    CARACALLA
    [​IMG]
    RI Caracalla 198-217 AR Denarius MONETA


    GALERIUS (Co-Emperor East):
    [​IMG]
    RI Galerius 293-308 AE30mm Folles Ticinum mint Moneta 12g
     
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  17. Johnnie Black

    Johnnie Black Neither Gentleman Nor Scholar Supporter

    My Moneta Carisius with bank mark. Either it’s the source coin for all the counterfeits out there, or a good looking fake in itself.

    3635118D-89D1-43E7-B576-18176C97AE6E.jpeg
    DCE790F7-6859-4FFE-ABF8-CFCEFBCB0D2A.jpeg
     
  18. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    Many have been fooled by this fake but I was not aware that NGC slabbed one. We have covered this one many times here on CT.

    Westair Reproductions Limited marks all their replicas with this WRL as on this penny of William the Conqueror. They are sold at museum gift shops around the world for very low prices.
     
  19. Sulla80

    Sulla80 one coin at a time Supporter

    Many interesting bankers marks...AND
    Thanks - I was hoping for some interesting Monetae.
    Here's one of my favorites (after the one of OP)
    Diocletianus Moneta.jpg
    Diocletian, 286-305 AD, Æ Follis, Rome mint, struck circa 300-301 AD
    Size: 27.8mm, 9.28gm
    Obv: IMP C DIOCLETIANVS P F AVG, laureate head right
    Rev: SACRA MON VRB AVGG ET CAESS NN, Moneta standing left, holding scales and cornucopiae; R crescent P in exergue
    Ref: RIC VI 100a

    I read with interest the thread on potential "mother coin" with NGC and David Sear certification.
     
  20. rrdenarius

    rrdenarius non omnibus dormio Supporter

    I like the details on your coin. I collect Moneta coins with scales, see them here - https://www.cointalk.com/threads/a-steelyard-scale-on-a-coin.340587/#post-3566543
    roemische-republik-roscia-4921639-XL.jpg
     
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