Came across this article by Ted Butler :Credits to Silver Seek "Silver is manipulated and suppressed in price and has been for decades because large traders on one side of the COMEX – traders labeled as “commercials” on the short side – are cheaters. Cheating is a deliberate attempt to evade the rules of the game to achieve an unfair advantage. Where do I get off calling the commercial traders in COMEX silver cheaters? I am including the referees – the regulators at the CFTC, the CME Group and the Justice Department – as complicit for allowing the cheating to continue. Simply stated, the COMEX is a crooked game run by cheaters and officiated by those condoning the cheating. "
That's different. I thought we were cheating ourselves buying silver instead of unicorns and butterflies on wallstreet.
Generally speaking, when there is an accusation such as this, it is usually followed by proof of the claim. In this case, the initial accusation is simply followed by more accusations.
I thought everyone already knew that silver trading had to have deep pockets. The Hunt brothers figured it out and ran the best 'trick' on a commodity 50+ years ago, and the only way to stop them was to pass new laws, which they did. But the Hunt Brothers then started buying land with water rights in the west to raise the price of water needs during droughts, and they passed new laws to stop that. Whether stocks , commodities , Bonds, Pawn shops, etc. You only buy the low and always sell the high ( of course if you don't have a long time line or own a part of Amazon), you will eventually lose to the companies which set the price. And if you are too successful they will pass laws against that. IMO, No on the subscription , Jim
That explains a lot, basically metal stackers who think they are going to cash out big are just dreaming. me I only want to not lose the money i put in, just a hedge. but only my numismatic coins are silver not my bullion but certainly the same is happening with other metals.
I think everyone already knows this about PM's, think of it as a ponzi scheme if you have to. The ones who get in on the ground floor make money, maybe not much but to me it's still better than depending totally on fiat currency! Meaning if you want to save money in the bank go for it, but I'll save my money in gold and silver!
All PMS are manipulated to some point, especially governments and big banks they have big hoards just waiting to dump it all on the market and driving the price way down, I remember in the last 80,s China dumped a huge amount of copper on the market cutting the price almost in half was an A/C mechanic in the 80.s so I scrapped allot of copper.
I understand the Hunt Brothers example Jim, but still think most accusations of "manipulation" is from those who simply do not know how futures work, (lots of folks apparently), or there is other things going on in the background we are unaware of, (almost all of us). Low PM prices in the 1990s now look explainable, (with hindsight), knowing now the large central bank sales around the world, coupled with low oil. Large purchases or sales are usually closely held secrets until long after the fact, for obvious reasons. I think that this causes a lot of cries of "manipulation". Myself, I will never know these things, so simply accumulate when I believe total price is fair, and not when I feel its too high.
That's the best I can do as well, as I'm not the one who gets to rub elbows with the COMEX traders at all. I'm simply a small fish in a large pond and that's as good as it gets for me, no complaints!
The way I see it Silver has traded at a ratio of 1:8 to 1:20 from ancient times all the way until very recently (relatively speaking) in the last century. According to geologists the ratio of silver to gold in the Earth’s crust is 18:1 which falls in line with that. Now with gold at ~$1,800/oz I truly believe that silver should be worth at least $50/oz if no manipulations were taking place. Sadly the market is manipulated so we’ll probably never see those ratios again but in some ways that’s good since I don’t want to pay $50+ an ounce for silver.
Yes, historically it was that way. However, now we have countries who are growing in wealth who ONLY care about gold. Europeans and middle easterners held both in high esteem, so it makes sense the value would be proportional to rarity. However, its not silver undervalued, its gold overvalued by billions of people who ONLY want gold and do not want silver. That is the pressure on the GSR, not depression of silver price IMHO. When I go to South or SE Asia, there are gold stores EVERYWHERE, and nearly no silver stores. Silver is mainly used for silverware there. Same is true in China.
Hmm well maybe it won’t always be that way? I mean afterall it wasn’t long ago that China only accepted payment in silver. They did not accept gold coin for payments. As humans we believe that things will stay as we know them but 50 years from now the situation might be reversed and there will be a lot of silver shops and very few gold shops. I was reading an article that made a lot of sense. The author wrote about how most of the gold ever mined is still in “circulation” per se. Whereas the silver used in industry is often destroyed/thrown away rather than recycled. If you’re interested here is what it said: “Silver differs from gold in several important ways. Most notably is that unlike gold, silver gets used up and is then gone forever. Almost all of the gold ever mined in mankind’s history is still here. We don’t really use gold for anything other than money or as a store of wealth and for decoration like jewelry. Silver gets used in all kinds of industries. It’s natural antibiotic properties make it a wonderful instrument in the medical field. It is used in military applications; it’s used in all kinds of electrical switches, relays, and batteries. It’s used in water purification systems and paints, and as a primary component in the photographic industry. Silver doesn’t corrode and has excellent thermal conductive properties. Silver, like gold, has also been used, [and continues to be used] as a monetary instrument for centuries. Moreover, as India and China continue their unparalleled advance into joining the ranks of the industrialized world, the situation will be further exacerbated.” Source: https://www.mining.com/silver-is-now-even-more-precious-than-gold-do-you-own-any/
I agree China used to demand payment in hard money. Maybe it was from me where you read how China was the end destination of silver on the silk road. However, they also accepted gold, but most countries were unwilling to send them gold, wanting to keep it for themselves to pay off barbarian attacks, etc. China also accepted jade, but westerners did not have a source for that. I am just saying the GSR is dangerous to play. It is as likely, (to me more likely), that gold has higher than historical demand rather than distorted lower silver demand to explain it. Its a lot like shorting stocks. Not only do you have to be right its going down, but your timing has to be perfect. Many people went bankrupt predicting the dot com and housing crashes, but were too early and got wiped out.
Oh, yeah I’m not trying to play any ratio or anything like that. I just stack because I enjoy it. I also find it helps me save money easier since I’m always tempted to spend cash but with silver I have to think and consider whether it’s worth selling for cash and one benefit of that is that I don’t impulse buy as often. But I do think that silver will always be worth something. Whether it’s $10/oz or $100/oz. It’s nice to have that sort of security. I was reading about the hyperinflation in Venezuela and apparently many Venezuelans were only able to survive by selling their gold & silver trinkets, jewelery etc., for foreign currency since the Venezuelan currency was basically worthless. For example: 14 million bolivares for a chicken.
@Gam3rBlake everything you say is true. Silver and gold have both appreciated significantly in my lifetime, and over a long time line have proven to be good investments. And as a student of history, I am familiar with gold/silver ratios, the eventual collapse of all fiat currencies, hyperinflation, etc. And I find the present gold/silver ratios strangely high at first glance. But perhaps the explanation is simple. Silver is no longer used as a circulating coinage medium anywhere in the world. And silver as tableware seems to have vanished as compared with 2 generations past. As late as the 1950’s it is my understanding that bridal registries were predominately for silver and china. Nowadays couples are likely to request lamps from Crate and Barrel, or camping equipment. Middle class brides do not want silver. Whereas gold is still a central bank monetary asset, and gold jewelry is still coveted. The most interesting question is will the secular trend of neglecting silver be reversed, and if so, when.
I agree it’s a fact that silver is no longer used in many of the ways it once was such as coinage & silverware. However it’s also true that today silver is used for many things that it was not in the past. For example electronics, solar panels, water purifiers, medical applications and many others. Solar in particular is where I see the biggest potential. I don’t want to bring politics or anything into the forum but I do think that solar is going to become cheaper and more popular and according to articles I’ve read it takes about 1 troy oz of silver to make 1 solar panel. Most buildings have several panels. I think eventually every new home built will be required to have solar panels (cause global warming) and even if that doesn’t happen I think solar panels will still become more widespread resulting in increased demand in silver to make them. Not just in the US either but I think they will be in demand in every developed country. But yeah I think because we use silver for so many different things there is an still that underlying demand. The fact is silver is the best metal to use for many things and so I think it will be used and in demand.
