Silver Eagles, are they coins?

Discussion in 'Bullion Investing' started by bhp3rd, Jan 24, 2009.

  1. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    they were a little late. Their civilization ended a little earlier than that.

    Ruben
     
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. davidh

    davidh soloist gnomic

    December 21, 2012 to be exact.
     
  4. JBK

    JBK Coin Collector

    In relation to my point about the "Dollar" not being a denomination as such in the place where the Trade Dollars were intended to be used (the Orient), I would definitely take exception to your comparison here. Early US coins may not have had denominations spelled out on them, but they had a set denomination just the same.

    The Trade Dollar said "Dollar" but the dollar was not the form of exchange in the Orient, nor was the British Trade Dollar, the Dutch Guilder, the Spanish 8 Reales, etc. The coins - in various types of denominations - were traded based on Silver content/value. As would the Silver Eagle.

    Merchant tokens have been issued over the years and were intended to circulate, but they are not coins. So, being intended to circulate (or not, as in the case of proof-only or even collector-only issues of otherwise circulating coinage) is not a fool-proof method for determining what is a "coin". 2008 halves and Sac dollars were not intended for ciruclation - are they not coins? The 1913 Liberty nickel was not intended to circulate and was an unauthorized issue to boot - is it not a coin? 1933 St. Gaudens $20?

    Collectors can determine for themselves what they want to collect, but I am afraid that if one does not want to accept the textbook definition of "coin" that was listed earlier in the thread, then there is no end to the debate.
     
  5. Bacchus

    Bacchus Coin Duffer

    That has nothing to do with whether they are coins.

    So ?

    There you go -- they’re coins !

    I also consider commemoratives to be coins, and they have less a case than the Eagles.

    I agree with this. Dollar bills are legal tender, but I wouldn’t consider them to be coins.

    Me too. And the gold.
     
  6. C Jay

    C Jay Member

    A Nevada businessman Robert Kahre was in the habbit of paying his employees with Gold and Silver Eagles, at face value. Of course nobody working for him made that much, no more than say 100.00 a week. Now think of the tax advantages. Well the IRS did and took him to court with I think 168 counts of tax evasion against him. Not one of them stuck. The court ruled Eagles were legal tender valued at face value.

    http://www.breakthematrix.com/Gover...Business-Man-Trumped-the-IRS-in-Federal-Court
     
  7. davidh

    davidh soloist gnomic

    This was a strange case but it answers the question. If Congress authorized the coin AND it has all the mottos found on non-gold/silver coins AND has a stated value THEN it is a legal tender coin for the value shown.

    I wonder why he hasn't had to answer for Wage and Hour violations. If his workers are working 40 hours a week and are paid $50 in gold coin, isn't that far under minimum wage standards?

    And, did the workers have to show they still possessed the coins, or did they have to show sale records and pay capitol gains taxes if they sold them?
     
  8. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    No I don't consider them to be coins, just as I don't consider proofs to be coins.

    My definition of a coin (I don't know if I posted it earlier here, this same thread is on at least three differernt forums and I know i posted it on at least one.) includes that they have to be issued by some kind of Legal Authority, typically a government. Merchant tokens, although issued with the intent to circulate as money lack the legal authority for issuance and are not coins.
     
  9. hfd12316

    hfd12316 Senior Member

    I find the accounting question intriguing. Are ASE's in stock held at their face value or bullion value? Think about it. We are considering discontinuing a coin that cost's TWICE the face value of the materials and labor etc. to produce. ASE's at face of $1 vs. $12 silver per oz! Talk about reverse seignorage!
    By the way if the world may end on 12/21/12 I think I'll hold off on my Christamas shopping until the 22nd:D
     
  10. maksimfa

    maksimfa New Member

    As far as accounting question...
    I am not a tax advisor, but a financial advisor, so these are just my own thoughts.

    If you are holding it as a cash equivalent or as cash, you count it as face value, ie you use it as a coin to pay for stuff.

    If you are holding it as an asset/collectible, for say your insurance purposes, you would count it at market value.

    But if it is a coin or not... yes its a coin. The difference between a silver bullion blank and a SAE is just that. The blank is not a legal tender of the USA, whereas if someone didnt know any better and found a SAE on the street, they would use it as a regular coin, since it says $1 on it, and go to the store and use it.

    When I worked at a grocery store, and then Staples as a cashier, if someone came in as a customer and paid with a $1 SAE, or a $50 GAE, or $100 Platinum coin.... it is a legal tender, that the government mandates can be used to pay and settle debts.

    Just like a roll of 90% silver halves, when you use them at a store or return them to the bank, you get face value. Meanwhile, based on collector market value, or melt value, it is worth a heck of a lot more than face value.
     
  11. bhp3rd

    bhp3rd Die varieties, Gems

    AMSE are not nor will they ever be considered coins.

    I will never be able to say (with a straight face) that any American eagle is a coin in our praticable application of the term, coin.
    They are chunks of bullion - they are not made to spend, nobody spends them, they do not circulate, they will never circulate, nobody's thinks of them in terms of their denomination ever ever except to calculate which size they are - hey, there it is right there - the answer, the mother of all answers, the argument to end all arguments -
    The only time an American Eagle coin's stated worth is thought of is when someone is trying to answer which size it is - don't you see my point! The only time we ask about their face value is when we want to find out how much more they are worth in contradiction to their stated face value.
    I do not think we do that with any other form of coinage.

    Ben "I found it" Peters
     
  12. maksimfa

    maksimfa New Member

    But to bring it back to the car example. A 1 million dollar Bugatti veyron, or the Ferrari FX.... they are meant, designed, and sold for collectibles... yet, you can daily drive it if you reallllllly needed to, and the government declares it and recognizes it as an everyday automobile.

    So as far as coins...

    Well, is it a coin and legal tender at face value? Yes. Is it practical to use it that way? Absolutely not.
     
  13. elaine 1970

    elaine 1970 material girl

    can anyone show us the photo of american eagle silver dollar that you got and was being used or handled so badly?. we would like to know what condition that coin is?. my guess is that the worst might still be extra fine 45 + or about unc. 50.
     
  14. Troodon

    Troodon Coin Collector

    I no longer have the circulated one I received, but it was very lightly handled (could just barely see some handling wear) and my guess is it would probably would have been graded AU58.

    I have seen once on eBay someone was selling a worn silver eagle, slabbed by PCGS no less, that was graded EF45. Be a nice conversation piece if nothing else! Since this coin doesn't practically circulate (at least not except for very rare circumstances) this would be pretty rare in low grades to be sure...
     
  15. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    "Silver Eagles, are they coins?"

    Your question is really a semantic one, IMO.

    The way I define the term "coin" -- a coin struck for use in commerce to be circulated or a representation thereof for collectors -- SAE's are not coins. They do not circulate and are not legal tender (with any value approximating their bullion content).

    As an aside, if you use the above definition, Trade Dollars come into question yet I view a trade dollar as "coin".

    So perhaps I see both sides of this issue.....
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page