Silver Eagle pricing. I don't understand.

Discussion in 'Bullion Investing' started by ldhair, Sep 28, 2022.

  1. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    A few days ago, I ask APMEX what they would offer for a sealed monster box of 2016 silver eagles. They came back with $11,700. That was about 26% over spot at the time. They sell the same box, online for $18,365. That's about 56% more than the offer they made to buy mine. I turned down the offer.

    Looking at the site, I can buy 100 pc at $33.94 each. They want $36.73 each for 500 pc in a sealed monster box. That's 8% more. That seems crazy to me.

    The math on these is driving me crazy trying to understand. What am I missing?
     
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
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  3. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    A sealed box would mean they haven’t been picked over and could possibly also be first strike eligible if someone was looking to submit them. A sealed box is also much rarer and much much harder to find, there just simply aren’t that many of the older ones still sealed whereas you can buy ASEs not in sealed boxes all day long until you run out of money
     
  4. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    I agree, I checked at other sites and that price seems low


    However, I have one 1986, which I see trades [sells for] $72.55, which I got years ago, probably around 1987, for $7.

    nice mark up
     
    ldhair and slackaction1 like this.
  5. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Me too Frank, except I got a roll in 1986. I was excited when they first came, then for some reason lost that excitement. But $7 seems like the price I paid too as I remember it.

    I agree with @baseball21 on the reasons sealed boxes more expensive. Same reason unopened mint bags go for premiums, (except FS designation). I don't agree WHY things like FS would ever matter, but agree with the economics argument.
     
    Randy Abercrombie likes this.
  6. Cherd

    Cherd Junior Member Supporter

    The only services provided by middle men (used car salesmen, coin dealers, commodities brokers) is skimming profits between one person's sale and another person's purchase. You can't make sense of justifying their profit margins because there is no justification, their success is derived from the laziness or ignorance of exploited buyers and sellers.
     
    crazyd likes this.
  7. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    In other words, there is an objection to capitalism and supply and demand pricing.
    Hmmm...
     
    Dynoking, imrich and Mr. Flute like this.
  8. justafarmer

    justafarmer Senior Member

    Put me in the lazy ignorant exploited category. 99.99% of everything I buy involves a middleman.
     
  9. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    Trying to figure out the methodology behind pricing on bullion is like
    hitting you hea against the wall, it hurts...
     
  10. Mr. Flute

    Mr. Flute Well-Known Member

    Well….that’s an opinion one can have.
     
    charley likes this.
  11. Cherd

    Cherd Junior Member Supporter

    No, in both cases.

    "Capitalism" as a category isn't defined by the driving forces behind an economy (supply and demand, etc), it simply indicates that the means of production are privately owned as opposed to state-owned and controlled.

    Private interests tend to be exclusively profit motivated, whereas state interests can be motivated by other things, such as efficiency, need, corruption, foreign relations, etc. This makes supply and demand a more important consideration in a capitalistic system, but it's an indirect relationship.

    The point that I'm making is an evaluation of "services provided" vs. "profit". The ultimate extreme example would be a person that buys a stock for $5 and sells it for $10. They made $5, but did they provide any type of service or "Value" to the system? ...... No.

    I probably could have sugar-coated it a bit more, but my intention was not to insult the roles that middle-men play in the world. I'm just saying that, if you are trying to find a justification for the buying and selling prices that they offer, then there are none to be found. The prices are derived for the simple purpose of having a profit margin, there is no value to the service provided.
     
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  12. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    I would like to add, I have bought a tremendous amount of coins both bullion and
    numismatic from APMEX, just wondering if the price was one of there flash sells
    they do this allot, so something to look out for.
     
  13. Cherd

    Cherd Junior Member Supporter

    We are all (including me) in that category to some extent:

    When a person is paid to mow a lawn, assuming that the customer is physically capable of mowing it themselves, then the laziness of the customer is being exploited.

    When a person is paid to do somebody else's taxes, assuming that the customer is capable of learning how to do it themselves, then the ignorance of the customer is being exploited.

    That is not to say that the customers are being mistreated in any of these cases, as mowing lawns and doing taxes are perfectly honorable ways to make money.

    But, these are also good examples for reinforcing the point that I was making initially. In these instances, the customers are getting something (a mowed lawn, completed taxes), which have value. What value are people getting when buying and selling from middle men... aside from ending up with less money? There is no value.
     
  14. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    The mint bags could be potentially qualify if theyre still sealed in the shipping box from the mint. The bags are definitely more of a gamble overall as sometimes those are just a disaster when you open them up. If anyone ever pulled a box from the first couple years that was still FS eligible there would really be fireworks on the price
     
  15. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    Oh...OK. I will let Wharton know. Thanks.
     
  16. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    Good Lord.
     
    ldhair and green18 like this.
  17. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    I find your post ludicrous, as I and other associates, often at a financial loss help the uninformed to accomplish education and ability to skirt untruths.

    Well I hope I've accomplished my daily education process.

    PM questions are accepted "Pro Bono".

    I was sitting here after midnight, putting together a stack of Indian Half-Eagles with internet "comps" for a past buyer who wants just A "low-buck/mintage" coin.

    The majority of the coins were believed improperly "detailed" by 2 major and 1 minor TPG, and my "raw" price is a fraction of the 4 pages of internet "comps", less than my past purchase when I was "filling holes".

    Life can be a "hobby" if you verify, and don't accept the untruths!

    JMHO
     
    slackaction1 likes this.
  18. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    RICHGATE.jpg
    I'm asking you to consider the hiring of "organized labor" personnel, often required by government mandate to perform tasks that many of us could complete.

    In order to properly complete my education as a scientist/engineer, I took training as a Craftsman similar to the training in competitive countries.

    I learned the general codes and practices for Electricians, Plumbers, Mechanics, Machinists, Millwrights, etc., purchasing, use their general tools.

    With the new codes, we are required to spend a fantastic sum for permits, etc. for individuals who often don't even arrive/enter sites/premises, but must sign paperwork of approval.

    I just pay a premium to appropriate practicing officials/laborers, facilitating project completion.

    Payola is believed rampant throughout a democracy, where the Election losers are supposedly required to pay "organizers" to get "skilled" laborers' work inspected.

    These middle-people virtually never use a physical tool, but are generally paid in excess of the craftsman!

    Just my understanding, submitted by POOR RICHARD!

    I hope my understanding has been just explained, as yours, received as fact?, but not political.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
  19. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    Thanks. I was not looking at that angle on this.
     
  20. Clawcoins

    Clawcoins Damaging Coins Daily

    I wonder how much they charge for the big green box.

    It's all the flipping profit. Buy, inventory, sell.
    I always watch their buy back price such as on the ProvidentMetals website
    at the bottom of their pricing matrix.

    upload_2022-9-29_10-13-23.png

    $27.89 Buyback for a $36.27 ASE they sell.
    With spot currently at $18.87
    upload_2022-9-29_10-14-27.png

    and the above pricing was for their Random Year which is what I used to use all the time just to build up my inventory.
    upload_2022-9-29_10-15-50.png

    Most of my past purchases I kept track of Price and spot.
    their profit over spot for the longest time was within reason. Then things went whacko a few years ago and I haven't bought since.

    For instance, in 11/28/2018 I bought ASEs at $16.63 and spot was $14.39.
    Now purchase price is $37.66 with spot at $18.74.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
    slackaction1 likes this.
  21. Cherd

    Cherd Junior Member Supporter

    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that this post is referring to one of mine?

    If you are doing these things, then you are providing a service (some value) for whatever profit you make in the end (not sure how it scales, but it's not zero).

    But this is not analogous to the APMEX example given in the OP, which is the scenario about which I was commenting. They are simply buying low and selling high (extracting profits without doing anything productive). This bare bones function of a middle-man provides no value.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think the lesson that I'm learning is that I need to be more euphemistic with my word selection around here, as any word with any possible negative connotation (exploit, no value, manipulate, etc) is assumed to be meant in the worst possible way. Nothing that I've said in this thread was meant to be insulting to anybody, I'm just accustomed to selecting words that explicitly and directly express the point that I'm making.

    I wouldn't call these people "middle-men", because they do not operate between transactions. However, this is definitely another example of profit being extracted from a system while providing no service.

    These people do not provide value in any real sense, however, this does not mean that they aren't necessary, or that they are doing anything immoral. They have simply managed to put themselves in a position where they can make money while not actually doing anything productive. (Just like people that make money by buying low and selling high)
     
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