Silver Bullet - Silver Shield. Well Isn't this a confusing situation....What is the Truth?

Discussion in 'Bullion Investing' started by Ethan, Apr 15, 2014.

  1. Ethan

    Ethan Collector of Kennedy's

    Well let me start by saying I bought the first four medals as they were released. I liked the message and quite frankly I liked the designs. I got the Death and Debt and showed it to many people who asked questions. That alone was worth the purchase price ($50 or so) when silver was $35?

    I am not taking sides on the whole issue as I am just not informed enough to make a good call on this situation. So I decided to educate myself on what the issues were. I have been reading a lot.

    My first 4 coins were delivered on time and without issue except my D&D copper (limited mintage?) did not come with my order as it was supposed to when I ordered Freedom Girl the day it was released. I called and I called again and finally received my copper medal after about two weeks. This was when the situation of the Mulligan Mint and Chris Duane went south or right around that time-frame. I ordered no more from that point on. I had paid a premium for my rounds and I thought with the issues that that was probably over with no matter how good the designs.

    Well the other night, I saw something that I wanted on FeeBay.


    When I originally bought these I did not buy the proofs that were offered, as I could not justify the premiums. Well I had my D&D, Trivium, Slave Queen, and Freedom Girl, all in BU strikes. The quality was very good and I was happy with them. So on the Bay I saw an auction for (7) rounds with a bonus of a original Copper D&D round. I did some calculations and some checks on actual sold values. I wanted this lot because it had a Proof Freedom girl that I regretted not buying. It also had a Proof Slave Queen, and two proof special mintage ones for SBSS members only. Plus 2 BU versions of FG and SQ. In addition it had a AG-47 that looked proof but the COA in the pictures was not there for that one so I still will not know what I get until it arrives. All in all, 7 ounces plus the limited Copper. Seemed like a group I was willing to bid on. So I did and I actually won it. It comes to about $25 an ounce not counting the copper piece. I am actually happy and looking forward to getting them. I finally have my Proof Freedom Girl and some other nice pieces to boot. These are sort of a piece of history in a way.


    So this got me to looking at the situation with this series. It is my understanding that the Mulligan Mint is now out of business or in bankruptcy anyway and that the Silver Bullet Silver Shield brand was hijacked. So Chris Duane has started over with the Silver Bullet series and has lost the SBSS brand name. Who is at fault? I started to ask a question that if the Mulligan Mint was using the dies to create new rounds, how can I be sure the mintage numbers of what I have are final? I can not be sure but I think that the MM created new ones but that were different than the originals in some way. Finding good information on this is very hard indeed. It would seem that Chris is moving right along with his plans however altered due to the falling out which makes me want to believe what the man claims. He still has deals with the online sellers of bullion products while Rob Grey does not. So I tried to investigate both sides of the issue and came across these videos with each telling their side of the story.

    Chris Duane's side of the story:

    Rob Grey's (Mulligan Mint) side of the story:

    In watching these, I can not make the determination of who is telling the truth. There is not much unbiased information out there on who was in the wrong. They both made a crap load of money off it but now there is the rumor that Chris Duane is bankrupt after accepting all debts to get the orders filled. How can this be true if he has new medals being offered by respected dealers and even more in the pipeline? I can not say the same for Rob Grey and that side of the story.

    So I will have some bullion coming that is very nice indeed no matter the outcome of this issue. I have to ask myself that if I paid ~$50 for the D&D and Trivium rounds are they still holding their value? D&D's are going for around $45 on the Bay and Triviums around the same price. The Copper D&D however has dropped big time. When I got mind they were going for $50 on the Bay and now for an original (2013) you can get one for $20. Mine was free so no loss there. The silver bullion rounds however have dropped as I was able to buy some for a good price. If I take what I got and look at the numbers and discount the BU and copper piece, I am getting proofs for around $30. I have no issue with this as they were much more in 2013. Yet silver has dropped and that has to be part of the equation. That being said, I have two proofs coming that the mintage's were 2012 pieces and 2013 pieces and these are going for $60 each. This leads me to believe that I did ok. I will get some medals that I wanted for a small premium over spot and they will add to my collection of the SBSS series that is for all intensive purposes defunct.

    What does this mean in the coming years? Well I see it like this, I have an Englehard prospector that I paid a nice $5 premium to get (1984). It still will sell for over spot by about $3-5 dollars in come cases. I have a Universaro from the 80's that I have no idea what it would sell for but I guess a minimal premium over spot. Where will the SBSS series be in 5 years? Will it be like the Franklin Mint and sell at spot? You see I like the Franklin mint products, they were very well done and a nice way to get silver at spot if you can.

    I would like to know what some of you think about this situation and if you have links that can lead me to more information on the SBSS situation, then by all means post it. I am curious and intrigued with the whole thing. My basic opinion is that even with a $15 drop in Silver, the ones I have have held their value for the most part. That was until I won this auction and realized that I can get them cheaper now. Is this mainly due to the drop in silver or the lack of confidence in a limited mintage bullion product?

    What say you?
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
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  3. fiatfiasco

    fiatfiasco Nasty Details Member

    Go to this site. Disregard all of the obvious Rob Gray bashing. Go to the court documents section (thousands of pages). Listen to (read) the testimonies and depositions by Rob, David and Kira Gray. Then tell me who you think is guilty. Also, make sure you define what it is exactly each party may be guilty of. I personally haven't seen anything immoral or illegal done by Duane. The Grays on the other hand, my goodness. My analysis and perspective is that they were so flamboyantly and sloppily greedy thieves, that there is a multitude of things done wrong (both immoral and illegal). I actually followed this on an almost daily basis by checking in on that site for updated docs. When it temporarily was pulled down during the courts assigning of Milo to the Mints directorial position, I was upset because I didn't get my daily dose of "holy wowness what else did this guy so".

    Also, the courts believe this as well. I think criminal charges may be int he works or already starting against the Grays.

    But decide for yourself.

    On a side note, I had not purchased a single round until 3 days ago, I picked up one of the "Love" rounds for my wife off eBay because it shows a pregnant woman (supposedly modeled by Duanes own wife) and she is due to pop within 4 weeks; she thought it looked "cute".
  4. fiatfiasco

    fiatfiasco Nasty Details Member

    I forgot. My favorite part was when the direct question was asked of Gray during his deposition -
    "Where did the (80,000?) ounces of silver go?"
    to which his answer was priceless -
    "You know, thats a great question, that is THE question".......

  5. Ethan

    Ethan Collector of Kennedy's

    Well I was leaning toward one side but it was he said she said. The fact that the precious metals sites are selling Silver Shield series and not SBSS was an eye-opener. Like I said I have been looking for answers and hopefully some will come out in this thread. You make a very good case and I think Duane's video was a bit more convincing than Rob's. I wonder how Ron Paul could have got tied up with him?
  6. fiatfiasco

    fiatfiasco Nasty Details Member

    I could care less about Duane or Gray, let alone their sides of the story. I care (or, cared) about why the mint failed, why MILLIONS of dollars of silver disappeared, why hundreds of thousand of dollars were funneled just in the building alone from MM to Kira Gray--its insane, its criminal, its open and shut black and white Rob GRay by a horselength! Read about how he used multiple AMEX cards, one for him, one for David, a shared one with Kira, as a bottomless personal spending machine. Its insane.

    Look, I am a humble dude. If anyone can show me how Duane is responsible for TENS of thousands of ounces of silver disappearing AFTER he severed ties with Gray, I will publicly (on this forum, haha) admit my wrongness. No prob. But every business that aligned themselves with Gray got burned. Read about how he screwed his buddy Jack from, a guy who defended him even in the fire, and now won't even discuss it, at all, period. Or how James Wesley Rawles owner of (my other 50% of my time when I am not on CoinTalk) warned everyone from the beginning how he could no longer do business with, or encourage any of his millions of readers to do business with Gray because of his "obvious and apparent character flaws".
    JJK78 likes this.
  7. Ethan

    Ethan Collector of Kennedy's

    You seem to make a convincing case...that is why I posted what I did, I wanted information that I could not seem to find. Thank you.

    Do you think the SBSS rounds will continue to hold their value?
  8. Slider

    Slider Member

    I've bought plenty of bullion rounds, but never any of these. I think the important thing to remember is that no matter how much you like the designs, they're still nothing more than bullion rounds. Buying such rounds in the hopes that they will grow in value at a rate faster than the spot price of the metal is a gamble indeed. The verdict is still out on the long term value propositions for modern bullion issues (private or sovereign mint issues). Personally, I'd rather treat bullion for what it is - an investment in the metal, not the design.
  9. fiatfiasco

    fiatfiasco Nasty Details Member

    OP, this is solid advice. I don't think one will retire on their SBSS investment. I do believe you will get your money back + a premium assuming the price of the metal itself doesn't freakishly drop.
  10. Ethan

    Ethan Collector of Kennedy's

    I agree with the bullion comment and I do not expect to make big money per se. I do think they are nice and I have other rounds including a zombiebuck and many others. I do however like the SBSS round and its story at least until the fallout.
  11. PeacePeople

    PeacePeople Wall St and stocks, where it's at

    If you can forget about the finger pointing and who is at fault for what, just look at what they are and the demand they have created and destroyed.

    I've purchased some of these early, Debt and Death, Slave Queen, Freedom Girl, and Trivium. I paid the market rate at the time of release and never really looked back. I haven't sold any, just kept them as a stash, and just several of each. For the most part they all did get a good bump in the market price once they stopped minting them. Those that didn't get the nice bump early suffered from the "separation" minting that was done by MM after CD left, Slave Queen and Freedom Girl. They didn't get a fast appreciation because MM made many more of these than D&D and Trivium, but they both have come back in a decent way, with respect to current premiums.

    Here is an example. At the end of Dec 2012, I bought a couple tubes of Freedom Girl from Provident, they were $21.95 each. I alerted a friend of mine that they had about 400 left and he saw the potential and bought all they had. He then sold them on ebay for $29.95 to $31.95, and I think he still has a few up for sale there. You might want to keep in mind that the original release price of FR was in the $30 range, and customers waited for MM to deliver. Most of those orders were placed in Dec 2012 and Jan 2013 (if my memory is correct) and many didn't get delivery until March or April, maybe even May. Then the split happened, and MM began to mint more, Freedom Girl and Slave Queen, I believe it was June and spot was in the $18 to $22 range (again, memory) with a $3 premium. So if you take that backwards, original release was $30, second release in June/July was $22 which held until the Jan 1st of 2014. The Slave Queen was about the same money back in June/July, and I haven't really kept track of what they have done recently.

    Now let's move forward to true split and coins that were minted by both MM and Golden State Mint under the SBSS brand. Please keep in mind I'm going off wrote memory, so the dates may be off a bit, but you'll get the picture.

    I'll post that info later, I have to do something for a little while.
  12. PeacePeople

    PeacePeople Wall St and stocks, where it's at

    After MM released Freedom Girl and Slave Queen for the 2nd go around, they then went to new designs and released AG-47 and Cannabis as bullion strike rounds, along with some proofs and other one off designs, Free Reign - Slave Queen and Freedom Girl on opposing sides, Her Highness - Slave Queen and Cannabis on opposing sides and some 5oz along with ANACS graded stuff, then paradimes and whatever else they could concoct which was, in my opinion, way overpriced for me to get a ROI, so I didn't buy any and didn't follow them. Then the proverbial manure hit the fan for MM and no more SBSS stuff was minted until December 2013, when the did Enemy Unknown. Through some back channels I picked up some of these and I still have the 6 I traded for. It seems they're fetching a good penny on ebay, but I haven't sold any of mine, yet.

    While this is going on, Chris Duane is getting his ducks in a row with Golden State Mint to produce his line of SBSS. He started releasing them in September or so with a couple distinguishing changes to the obverse for identification with Warbird, then he moved on to Love, then did his versions of Ag-47 and Cannabis, then went back to original designs, Sic Semper Tyrannis, Argyrespides, Consumerism and Peace on Earth. During the middle of all of this he also did a 5oz Trivium and 2oz Freedom Girl. None of them did nearly as well as the original 4 in volume. The "divorce" and all the mudslinging harmed both parties, far beyond what either imagined in my estimation.

    With all of the above items they released proof strike coins and all kinds of other one off stuff. While they were both doing their thing, you have other parties trying to get in on the action with their releases of anti-fed, anti-government, anti-banker and what ever other anti-establishment idea they could come up with. It got to the point that many were just tired of the theme, drama and plethora of products available, none of which were an original concept any longer, so they moved on to other products available.

    Then it gets better. At the start of the new year CD releases the double trivium, then announces that he's going to re-mint all the old coins with his new brand, Silver Shield. At this point I stopped paying any attention to CD.

    More recently I have noticed all kinds of one-off SBSS designs on ebay. Since I'm not really interested, I never looked into who made them. I'm not a buyer of this stuff any longer I'm a seller.

    I have not purchased the proofs at any time. I did trade for a couple that I thought would have the best near term move, I just haven't done anything with them. I have sold many of the other bullion strike coins. One thing that I do keep in mind all the time is this. They are generic rounds that have a collector base who seems willing to pay a premium to obtain them. Since I paid generic bullion prices for them, I will sell them and keep the premium as long as there is premium to be had.
  13. PeacePeople

    PeacePeople Wall St and stocks, where it's at

    As far as those 2 people, Rob Gray and Chris Duane are concerned, I don't trust either of them. I don't care to pick a side, mostly because neither has harmed me in any way and I really believe they both harmed each other enough that I can't say or do anything that they haven't already done to themselves and each other. They're the owner of the consequences of their decisions, the peanut gallery really should shut it and eat their peanuts. Just my opinion, your results may vary.
  14. Ethan

    Ethan Collector of Kennedy's

    Thanks for the in depth reply. I tend to agree with not trusting either as they have made $$ with the idea and who was the most shady during that time is really moot. I really liked the idea of the series and I still do, but you are correct and it is bullion. However I think it will retain some of its premium compared to say a Lakota Bank round but we shall see.

    One of the issues I have are the mintage numbers. Is what you find on the web correct? Here is what I can find but specialty items such as the Copper Debt and Death are unknown. I personally think they minted more than CD knew. I remember when they were going for $50 on the Bay and some guy all of a sudden was selling from a roll of them. Shady indeed.

    Silver Bullet Silver Shield Mintage

    Debt and Death
    1. Hard Strike- (All Arrowheads in detail) 20
    2. Soft Strike – (Shallow strike Arrowheads flat) 100
    3. SBS-s (- the "s" on problems) oiled est? 300
    4. SBS-s (- the "s" on problems) clean est? 560
    5. Regular oiled 3,000
    6. Regular/Proof 41,457
    7. BU both sides Est? 4,000
    8. Wide Reed 3,900

    BU 52,970
    Proof 3,999

    New Year's SSG Member's

    Slave Queen SSG Member's

    Slave Queen
    BU est? 80,000
    Proof est? 8,000

    Freedom Girl
    BU est? 150,000
    Proof est? 15,000

    BU 42,060
    Proof 3,880

    BU Warbird/ Proof Shield SSG

    BU Warbird/ Proof Love SSG

    BU 14,040
    Proof 3,040

    BU 14,460
    Proof 2,440

    BU 15,120
    Proof 2,200

    2 oz. Freedom Girl
    BU 5,000
    Proof 2,000

    5 oz Trivium
    BU 2,000
    Proof 1,100

    Sic Semper Tyrannis
    BU 16,640
    Proof 3,250

    BU 9,300
    Proof 2,850

    Peace On Earth
    BU 7,220
    Proof 1,650

    POE Proof/Santa Slave BU SSG

    Santa Slave
    BU 8,840
    Proof 1,850
  15. Slider

    Slider Member

    I'm a part time firefighter and I bought two of the 9/11 medals released in 2011 to commemorate the 10 year anniversary of the event. Between the two, they minted about 65,000 of the P mint and about 100,000 of the D mint. I thought perhaps I'd bought a relative rarity in modern coinage. Today, they can easily be purchased for 30% less than their release price.

    The point being that we could fill pages here of examples of relatively low mintage U.S. Mint coins and medals whose prices have failed to rise much over time. I suspect that when viewed as a whole, the low mintages of private mint issues are even less relevant to their future market values. Scarcity and price are not mutually exclusive.
  16. PeacePeople

    PeacePeople Wall St and stocks, where it's at

    Just a heads up. I got an email today from SBSS, the Rob Gray side of things with a new release, and it looks like they have 1 planned release every month for the next 6 months. Rob Gray's name is not mentioned, but I'm sure it's him.

    Also, I did get confirmation that all the one offs that are on ebay are from Mulligan Mint. While they went through their bankruptcy and court proceedings, they produced all kinds of one off sbss rounds.

    So, while they both continue to proliferate the market with this stuff, you might see the prices come to you on a lot of it...just my 2 cents
  17. jaceravone

    jaceravone Member

    I love my AG47 medals. I wish I was able to purchase the 2013/2014 obverse/reverse ones. I like that design.

    2013 SBS - obv.JPG 2013 SBS - rev.JPG 2013 SBS PR - obv.JPG 2013 SBS PR - rev.JPG 2013 SBS UNC - obv.JPG 2013 SBS UNC - rev.JPG
    yakpoo and Ethan like this.
  18. Ethan

    Ethan Collector of Kennedy's

    Yeah I am starting to wonder about that. I do not think they minted more of the D&D's from 2012 and still some are rare but they combined them and sold them. Quite frankly that was wrong. This has got me looking and reading as I want to know. I think Rob Gray is a shiester but I will reserve total judgement until I have done my research.

    I am working my way through this site at this time.

    Reading his depositions to the court and stopped for now at the $500k payment to the guy as severance because of a drug problem. Actually many of you would laugh but this would make a good movie.

    As for the AG47, I have mine coming in a few days. I do not feel I have personally been ripped off but that is not the case for many. Still, I will not order direct from them for sure but from a dealer. Heck the prices are better that way. There are a couple in the series that I still want...

    It will have to wait as I have a 65CAM Kennedy I am looking at...
  19. PeacePeople

    PeacePeople Wall St and stocks, where it's at

    I wouldn't do business with them at this point at all. I did buy FG, SQ, AG-47 and Cannabis direct from MM last summer. The reason I took the chance when many I know wouldn't was Chris Duane mentioned in his whineblog about MM that they don't try to defraud their customers. They try to do that to their investors and partners.
  20. PeacePeople

    PeacePeople Wall St and stocks, where it's at

    I do wonder about the mintage numbers of Cannabis and AG-47. Is that both mints or just 1? I guess the only person that knows is the person doing the reporting. If it's from the Duane side of things, I'd be he didn't include the MM numbers.
  21. Ethan

    Ethan Collector of Kennedy's

    After reading through the court papers. I tend to believe him. However, I will not buy from him either now as I just do not trust the situation.

    What is scary is the Lakota Bank stuff...I have a silver round that I bought purely on looks, I have an Andrew Jackson, a Gault........still the Lakota Bank deal is most likely jail time for Rob, his brother, and his wife.

    What I find hard to believe is that someone like Chris could buy into this guy. I know I have met these type of folks but usually my BS Sonar starts pinging.

    If Rob had nothing to hide he would not be in Singapore now...I do not have the link but he has run.........maybe he will be Madoff'd at some point.
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