Security Against Gold & Silver Counterfeit Coins

Discussion in 'Bullion Investing' started by Good Cents, Jan 17, 2019.

  1. CasualAg$

    CasualAg$ Corvid Minions Collecting

    I doubt anyone thinks you’re wrong about “KNOW YOUR DEALER” and it’s a lot easier than becoming an expert. I’m in favor of knowing my dealer in the RCM network and purchasing the coin that is hardest to duplicate. Not impossible, just most difficult. Staying in-network with a known dealer gives me the best chance of getting what I pay for.
     
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  3. myownprivy

    myownprivy Well-Known Member

    This post pretty much sums it up.


     
  4. Good Cents

    Good Cents Active Member

    So, this was yet another life lesson for me in "Trust but verify."

    In #2 above, MyOwnPrivy wrote:

    "A gold maple is 31.1 grams and 30 mm diameter and 2.8mm thickness. It fits perfectly in a 30.6mm airtite to test these specs."

    On MyOwnPrivy's say so - because he sounded like an expert and so knowledgeable and passionate and everything he wrote made sense - I purchased 30.6mm Airtites for my GMLs. To my deep disappointment they did not "fit perfectly" and there was a big rattle. :eek:

    Duuuuh - of course they don't "fit perfectly"!! The coin is 30mm and the Airtite is 30.6mm!! o_O

    Why I didn't realize this, why I didn't verify it, and why I instead simply trusted what someone seemingly knowledgeable said is because I'm generally too much of a trusting person. As a rule I don't lie or mislead, and so I usually don't expect anyone else to if I see no reason for them to be doing so. I don't think MyOwnPrivy intentionally misled in this case. The Airtite does fit. It just does not "fit perfectly" and there is a big rattle. The rattle will scratch my GMLs and if I wanted scratched-up GMLs I wouldn't invest the money and time of putting them into Airtites. I would simply stack them on top of each other and wrap them in a ziplock baggie, or use the scratchy vinyl flip it came in. But I invested in expensive Airtites because I want to keep my GMLs in non-scratched-up condition. The 30.6 Airtites don't do this.

    The company I bought the Airtites from doesn't allow returns if the package is opened, and I opened the package to put my GMLs into them! :wacky: So, there goes money down the drain. Of course it's not a huge loss, but it's money wasted and for a really stupid reason. I hate that. :(

    Trust but verify. Gosh, when will I learn?! :oops:

    PS - Anyone want some 30.6mm Direct Fit Airtites? :meh: I have bunch and for the cost of shipping, they're yours.
     
  5. myownprivy

    myownprivy Well-Known Member

    I'm confused by what you ordered. T-30 direct fit air tites hold 1 oz Gold Maples as perfectly as any size airtite can. There is not a big rattle on any of mine at all. So, I am thinking you either ordered something different, or you are even pickier than I am!

    What I am seeing about this particular airtite is that its thickness is 2.03 mm while a 1 oz gold Maple is 2.8mm. I am thinking that this small oversize of the coin helps prevent it from moving. So, I think maybe you ordered something else and are getting a rattle.

    I also don't move them around as much as you might worry about. They're in a tube with cotton pressing down any remaining space. They're very safe!




     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  6. desertgem

    desertgem MODERATOR Senior Errer Collecktor Moderator

    0.6 mm is about 6 sheets of 20lb printer paper, since it surrounds the coin edge, the space on either side is only about 3 sheet thickness (0.3. I do not see how if the measurements are correct you can get a good rattle . there has to be a little space as temperature coefficients of plastic and coin metals ( silver copper, gold,etc.) are much higher than those of plastic. Many people see this with cents in plastic tubes where they are held in place by contact.. If you have a micrometer, measure the inside of the plastic and you can put a piece of electrical tape around the jaws and measure the coin without scratching it.
    Jim
     
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  7. myownprivy

    myownprivy Well-Known Member

    And are you sure you don't actually own 1/2 oz gold Maples by mistake? That would explain the rattle lol
     
  8. Good Cents

    Good Cents Active Member

    There was a rattle in mine for my brand new 2019 Gold Maple ordered from one of the big online sellers. I ordered the Airtite capsules from this website:

    https://www.air-tites.com/

    I know they are not the actual manufacturer, but they sell Airtites and have no incentive to cheat their good customers.

    In terms of pickiness, when it comes to something that I pay or is valued at upwards of $1,300, in a quantity of more than one, then yes, I tend to be picky about getting them scratched up, both due to the risk of lowering their value and while paying good money for the best storage option available.

    And even though you may not move them around much, the point is that the fit is not perfect. Other people may move them around more, and in a capsule that is a "Perfect Fit" they would be able to be moved around without concern for rattles or scratches.


     
  9. Good Cents

    Good Cents Active Member

    Yes. I'm sure.

     
  10. Good Cents

    Good Cents Active Member

    In terms of getting a good rattle - I got a rattle - a definite rattle. I am preparing for a big event right now but in a few weeks when I have more time I will take a video of the rattle, so you can rate how much of a rattle it is. Either way, for me, it was too much of a rattle and would have produced scratches that I would very much like to avoid.

    In terms of the "temperature coefficients" - I'm a layman when it comes to science and scientific jargon. What I understand your saying is that temperature changes will effect the metal differently than it will effect the plastic in terms of the metal and plastic expanding and contracting due to temperature changes, and therefore there needs to be a small difference in the measurements of the plastic vs the metal. Is that what you mean? If so, I would think that .1mm would suffice. Again, I'm not a scientist and am a science layman. But we're not talking a difference in temperatures from the Arctic Tundra to the midday desert sun. We're talking a safety deposit box in a big USA East Coast city.

    In terms of saying that the difference is .3mm on each side - It's been a few decades since my high school math class, so, please correct me in the real possibility that I'm misunderstanding something, but a space of .3mm on each side assumes the coin stays centered inside the capsule. However, the nature of the space being too big means that the coin can and will shift to the edge of the capsule and then move back to the other edge which is a shift of .6mm from side to side.

    I'm not sure what you want me to measure with a micrometer, but, can't we trust Canada to measure their coins correctly? And in terms of the Airtite capsule, as I wrote in a different post above, I am a good customer at this website: www.air-tites.com which sells massive quantities of Airtites and has no reason to cheat a good customer by selling me a different product. Either way, I wont have time for a few weeks to make a video and take measurements showing that there is a large enough rattle which can cause scratches.

    The good news is that with an Airtite H39 Ring-Capsule with a 30mm Ring, the Gold Maple Leaf coin does not shift and there is no rattle AT ALL. It truly is a "Perfect Fit."

    Now I just have to worry about the contents of the foamy-type-substance they use in those Rings. Is it really something that wont break down and fuse with the Gold over the decades and through the temperature shifts of a safe deposit box? Time will tell, I guess.

     
  11. myownprivy

    myownprivy Well-Known Member

    I ordered my batch of t-30 airtites several years ago. I suppose there's a chance the manufacturing changed or you ordered something different than the t-30 that explains the rattle.

    They will always move ever so slightly unless you use an inner black ring. The black ring won't fit in the t-30, you'd need to order a bigger size to accommodate the ring.
     
  12. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    As long as there,s money to be made, people will figure out a way yo
    Steal it...TRUE !!
     
    Good Cents likes this.
  13. Good Cents

    Good Cents Active Member

    I didn't order anything different than the T-30.

    Other silver and gold coins that I have in Direct Fit Airtites don't have a rattle and do, in fact, fit perfectly.

    I know the black ring wont fit in the T-30, as I wrote above - it's the H39 with a 30mm ring - which of course is a different capsule.
     
  14. myownprivy

    myownprivy Well-Known Member

    You're being really strange, attacking, and defensive about this. And I just don't get it. You paid close to 75 cents each, for maybe air tites and ordered, what, 10 or 25 of them? So you're raising a stink over just a few dollars. (unless you're a baller and have 100 ounces of gold Maples and ordered $75 worth of air tites?)

    Your air tites fit properly if you bought what you say you did. The tiny movement will in no way damage the bullion. Unless you're doing something like this:

     
  15. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    As an outside observer, I'm not seeing it.
     
  16. myownprivy

    myownprivy Well-Known Member

    1. Attacking: He said he shouldn't have trusted me. i.e. I caused him to waste his money on air tites
    2. Defensive: He continues to say the proper sized air tites that people all around the world use for their gold maples don't fit his gold maples. No matter what anyone else posts (me with my experience in Maples, as I have demonstrated over and over on this board, or desertgem's knowledge, etc.) he still says his Gold Maples rattle inside of the airtites.
    3. Strange: His Maples rattle but no one else's do? Don't you find that strange? That makes me think he either has the wrong airtite or wrong coin, or he is throwing his coins in capsules around to make them rattle, much like Adam Sander throws a perfectly fine can onto the grocery store floor in order to dent the can so he can say it's damaged.

    I think goodcents is a good guy. I really enjoyed the two of us posting in this thread showing others how great Maple Leaf security features are, but now I'm blamed for making him waste money on airtites!?
     
    JPeace$ likes this.
  17. CasualAg$

    CasualAg$ Corvid Minions Collecting

    It very much seemed like a message that should have passed only between the folks directly involved. Whether intentional or not, that complaint about the airtites was accusatory in both tone and substance. I’m thinking they are both right: the recommended capsule is the correct holder, the coins rattle to an extent that @Good Cents finds problematic. Incidental contact, no flag.

    ASIDE: I had an experienced coin dealer tell me there is no airtite that measures 30.6mm. So I have a couple British pennies (with my favorite Britannia image on the reverse) displayed in larger holders with black rings.
     
  18. Good Cents

    Good Cents Active Member

    Firstly, I apologize if my tone was accusatory and if I seem defensive.

    The Gold Maple Leaf 1oz coin is, in my opinion, the best gold coin you can get at this time for security purposes.

    I am not blaming you for my wasting money and I clearly blamed myself for not checking up on and verifying the info when you listed the T-30 Airtite as one of the ways to authenticate a GML due to its perfect fit. I figured that if you are listing that as one of the many ways to authenticate the GML then it must, in fact, be the exact measurement. It isn't. And I blamed myself for not verifying the information. I don't think you intentionally tried to mislead anyone. The T-30 is in fact used for the GML even though it is not a perfect fit. (Btw, it was made specifically to fit a US Half Dollar. It happens to house a GML in a way that is good enough for lots of people, and there is no Direct Fit Airtite that is any better for the GML).

    Additionally, I wanted to point out that the fit of a GML into a T-30 should probably not be one of your arguments in the future in terms of authenticating a GML, even if it's on the very bottom of the list as in your earlier post I quoted above.

    Wasting $20 bucks is not the end of the world. But it's frustrating. Again, it is in NO WAY your fault and I'm not blaming or accusing you. I was simply frustrated. It was a day full of frustration for me. On the same day a brand new $120 pair of so-called "Snow Boots" which say "Waterproof" in big, bold letters, proved to be nothing of the sort.

    I want people to know that the T-30 Direct Fit Airtite is in fact 30.6mm and the GML coin itself is 30mm. So, even though many people use the T-30 and find it adequate for the GML, and there is no other Direct Fit Airtite that fits a GML any better, still and all, the T-30 is not a perfect fit for the GML. I also want people to know that the Airtite H39 with 30mm Ring does work perfectly for the GML.

    And lastly, with all the fraudulent coins out there, I wanted people to know that the T-30 Airtite should not be on the list of authentication devices for a GML, even if it's last on the list.

    Again, I do not blame you, I apologize for any accusatory tone and I hope there are no hard feelings.

     
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