Scotland: silver penny of Alexander III, second coinage, ca. 1280-1286

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by lordmarcovan, Sep 26, 2021.

?

How interesting/appealing do you find this coin, whether or not you're an expert? (1=worst, 10=best)

  1. 10

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
  2. 9

    3 vote(s)
    37.5%
  3. 8

    3 vote(s)
    37.5%
  4. 7

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
  5. 6

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. 5

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. 4

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. 3

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. 2

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. 1

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Scotland: silver penny of Alexander III, second coinage, ca. 1280-1286
    01-ScotlandAlex3-frame.png
    Obverse: ✚ ALEXANDER DEI GRA, crowned head of Alexander III right, lis-topped scepter before.
    Reverse: REX SCO TOR RVM ✚, long cross with six-pointed mullet (or voided star) in each angle. Straight sided lettering.
    Issuer: Alexander III, King of Scotland (1249-1286).
    Specifications: silver penny, 19.2 mm, 1.36 g. Second coinage, Class Ma. Edinburgh mint, struck circa 1280-1286.
    Grade: PCGS XF45; cert. #43640588.
    Reference: Numista-55480, Cf. Burns pl. XV, figs. 152-158; Spink-SCBC-5053.
    Provenance: ex-Agora Auctions Numismatic Sale #100, Lot 242, 4 May 2021.* Prior provenance to the Wisdom Collection.
    Notes: King Alexander III of Scotland died without a surviving heir. His granddaughter, Margaret, the Maid of Norway, only three years old at the time of his death, was made the presumptive heir under six regents called the Guardians of Scotland, but she herself died at age seven without being formally crowned as queen. The death of Alexander and his young female heir presumptive, and the subsequent period of chaos, was an indirect cause of the Wars of Scottish Independence against England. (The popular but heavily fictionalized film Braveheart is set during that period.)
    Comments: I am of Scots-Irish descent, yet somehow I managed to lack a single Scottish coin in my collection for 45 years. So I was very pleased to acquire this one. Scotland's independent coinage ceased in 1709 after the Acts of Union with Great Britain, so Scottish coins are not something you see every day.


    01-ScotlandAlex3-frame.png 02-ScotlandAlex3-TrueView.png 03-ScotlandAlex3-black.png 04-ScotlandAlex3-gradient.png 05-ScotlandAlex3-white.png 06-ScotlandAlex3-obv.png 07-ScotlandAlex3-rev.png 08-ScotlandAlex3-slab.png

    031680R
     
    longshot, kazuma78, tibor and 6 others like this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    Your pictures aren't showing.
     
  4. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Thank you. I forgot I composed the rough draft of this thread in a moderators-only forum and copied-and-pasted from there. The software is smart about that- you can't copy-paste images from restricted forums and private messages. If you do, you can see them, but nobody else can!

    I'll have to re-upload them to work on this public forum.

    Had you not just given me that heads-up, it would have taken me a while to realize that!

    Edit- they should work now. Thanks again.
     
  5. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Anybody else- see the pics now? You should be able to. I logged out and looked, and saw them there now.
     
  6. Evan Saltis

    Evan Saltis OWNER - EBS Numis LLC Supporter

    It looks well struck to me, which put my almost at a 9.
    I don't know jack about these coins, and it looks a little dark to my taste, but otherwise I find it incredibly attractive in comparison to most I have come across.

    its a couple centuries later, but still I prefer your half-groat ;)
     
    lordmarcovan likes this.
  7. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Thanks. This one? It's a full groat. :)
     
  8. Evan Saltis

    Evan Saltis OWNER - EBS Numis LLC Supporter

    Was thinking more this one. Which is right up my alley.
    yes, that full groat is spectacular itself.
     
    lordmarcovan likes this.
  9. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Ah, yes. I suppose that one is indeed a half-groat, though I'm more accustomed to using the Polish half-grosz in that particular context. Those Polish-Lithuanian pieces are quite affordable, even in Mint State like that one. They're probably my favorite type of early dated coins.

    (*I'd still trade three of them for this Scottish piece, though.) ;)
     
  10. scottishmoney

    scottishmoney Buh bye

    Just a note on the points on the reverse of Scots pennies - it is conjectural because the original records are lost - 24 point coins were most likely minted in Berwick because they are the most common coins of a fairly common overall mintage for that era. Berwick was then the source of most of the silver used in Scotland so it would make sense that most coins were minted there.

    But.. it gets interesting because Berwick being in proximity to the border oft was either part of Scotland or England depending on how the winds of military might blew. In the late 13th century it became part of England and I have a coin minted during the reign of Edward I that I am trying to find an image of. Trading of border communities is what likely permitted the minting of Scots coinage in the first place during the reign of David I(1124-1153):

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/it...ng-that-begins-with-an-s.386892/#post-7913759

    It is believed now that approximately 50 million pennies were struck during the 1280-1286 years of Alexander III's reign - a particularly huge number that was quickly absorbed into the growing trade economy with England and the rest of Europe.

    It is one of the early fascinating eras of Scots coinage because there were 16 mints operating in Scotland and some like Berwick, Edinburgh, Perth are common but others like Ayr are little stinkers to find.
     
    longshot and lordmarcovan like this.
  11. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    By "points", and "24 points", do you mean the tips of the mullets (stars)?

    Despite my enthusiasm, it will be fairly obvious that I'm a complete neophyte with Scottish coins. This is, as mentioned, my very first.
     
  12. scottishmoney

    scottishmoney Buh bye

    Yes indeed. Happy to help with knowledge of Scots coins, just don't be after me bawbees an' bodles and ya's be alraght. An' like you I hae Scots blood coursing me veins.
     
    lordmarcovan likes this.
  13. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Thankee, sir. D'ye ken anything aboot this "Wisdom Collection" cited in the provenance?
     
  14. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Nice example.

    I have one too.

    [​IMG]
    Alexander III (1249 - 1286 A.D.)
    AR Penny
    Scotland, Second Coinage Class MB2
    O: ม ΛLЄXΛ(ND)ЄR DЄI GRΛ, crowned head left
    R: + RЄX SCO TOR VM, long cross pattée, with 24 points on mullets in quarters.
    Berwick Mint
    .99g
    23mm
    Burns 45 (fig. 179); Stewart & North 14; SCBI 35 (Ashmolean & Hunterian) 231; SCBC 5054
     
    scottishmoney and lordmarcovan like this.
  15. scottishmoney

    scottishmoney Buh bye

    20 points - Edinburgh

    23 points - Aberdeen

    24 points - Berwick

    25 points - Roxburgh

    26 points - Perth

    Coins with 21, 22, 27, and 28 points have not been associated with any known town, and certainly must have come from much smaller locales.
     
  16. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Awesome. Everyone feel free to "pile on" with any Scottish coins you might have- not just medievals.
     
  17. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    So does this mean my coin is from Berwick rather than Edinburgh, as attributed by the auctioneer?

    And what do the coins with odd numbers of points look like? The mullets/stars must have to be different from one another, to come up with an odd number of points?
     
  18. scottishmoney

    scottishmoney Buh bye

    cplradar and lordmarcovan like this.
  19. Chris B

    Chris B Supporter! Supporter

    It's not my main focus but coins from Scotland are very appealing to me. These are some of the better ones from my collection.

    @scottishmoney Like the op, my knowledge of these is pretty limited. Do you have any idea what the "H" countermark on the Ryal may mean?

    Sco156501.jpg
    Sco163701.jpg Sco169301.jpg
    Sco167705.jpg
     
  20. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

  21. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Chris B likes this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page