Same coin, $17,000 difference in holders

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by TypeCoin971793, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    You showing you age. "The 5th" or 4/5 ths of a quarter went out about the time I turned 21. The Alcohol industry saw the chance to switch to go Metric and sell less booze in a 750 ml bottle that looked tht same.
    wxcoin, Dynoking and thomas mozzillo like this.
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  3. Dynoking

    Dynoking Well-Known Member

    The bold type below are edited quotes from calcol. Please forgive my limited tech knowledge.

    For those who think pre-TPG days were the good ole days ... nope ... selective memory or good luck. I started with US coins in the early 1980's. Virtually every coin that had been bought from a dealer ... and I bought from many dealers, local and national ... was considered lower grade on selling.

    I started in the early mid 70's. I was in my 'tweens. Fast forward to 2012. To facilitate the eventual sale of my collection I have to have my collection graded by the TPG's. Some of my many "Gem BU" coins I bought from my trusted dealer have been returned as cleaned. After taking a ANA grading class in 2018 I learned what hairlines are. I can't blame the TPG, but I will have a thing or two to say to the dealer when I catch up with him in the afterlife.

    We can all find reasons to criticize the major TPGs. I do it on occasion ... I could tell you about my late uncle's Morgan dollar that had been in a paper wrapper for 50 years and came back with an AT label ...

    I had the exact result with my 1862 Dime. Stored 40 years in a paper coin envolpe since it purchase in the 70's.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
    calcol likes this.
  4. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Supporter! Supporter

    Except the FICO scores at any given time are based on CHANGING credit and default and payment histories. That's why the algorithim changes. I thought grading standards were for the most part fixed (that sound you all heard in the background was Doug gritting his teeth :D ).

    Once upon a time, nobody defaulted on their home mortgage and credit cards were risky. After 2009, that reversed.

    The coin grade in this case is like Experian rates you an 820 (pristine credit) and TransUnion rates you a 630 (sub-prime).

    I realize numerical grades can vary MORE as you go LOWER -- but 23 grades difference ? That's like not knowing if a Morgan Dollar or Saint-Gaudens is an MS62 or an MS66.
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  5. geekpryde

    geekpryde Husband and Father Moderator

    Yes and No. What you are saying about people's scores changing due to their balances, accounts, hard pulls, defaults, age of accounts, etc is true. However, what I was trying to say in my post, and maybe I didn't explain it well enough, is that what the Algorithm is looking at, how it weights those things, what it cares about and doesn't care about, HAS changed and will continue to change regardless of details about a particular person.

    FICO introduces an entirely new scoring algorithm (AKA their grading "standards") every so many years. Normal people get their FICO score and think a FICO is a FICO is a FICO, and that's NOT true. There is the FICO-2008 standard, the FICO-2014 standard, the FICO-2020 Standard and so on. In fact, while some businesses quickly adopt the new algorithm, FICO 10, many others will continue to use the older algorithm for many more years! Meaning, you could be shopping for a car loan, and one place pulls Experian FICO 10 and another bank on the same day, pulls an Experian FICO 9 (circa 2014), and there are even banks still using FICO 8 to this day! You can have two wildly different scores on the same day, with the same exact credit history! Then you mix in the fact that their are "industry" based specific fico scores, depending on what type of lender you are, well, then you can go right ahead a triple-quadruple the number of flavors of scoring. It's enough to make a person a bit mental, LOL. Luckily with coins, there are a lot less standards to keep track of, however, the coins industry is far more opaque about them.

    Sorry to bog down this post with this FICO score nonsense, but maybe it helps someone and also my original goal was to use the analogy to compare to coins and how rock solid "standards" can and do change, even if someone things there is only a single standard in play, and that it never changes with time.

    I'll stop blathering about now. Carry on.
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  6. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Supporter! Supporter

    They usually do....this is just an egregious case of being WAY off...either on the 1st or 2nd grading.

    Most of the time, especially when dealing with Mint State coins....they're spot-on.

    But it seems the LOWER you go in grades, the more variance there is. You won't see a Morgan or a Saint change by 2-3 grades in Mint State that often, if ever.
    TypeCoin971793 likes this.
  7. CircCam

    CircCam Victory

    I don’t have the links handy but it definitely happens with Morgans... @ddddd has shared several examples of this that were somewhat mind-blowing. Less so for sure with Saints as they don’t tone dramatically so the eye appeal grading bumps aren’t so widespread as with Morgan $’s.
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  8. fiddlehead

    fiddlehead Well-Known Member

    And only a few months in between the sales? When I buy a coin - that has some rarety - that has at anytime been in a heritage sale I look for it in previous sales to see if it's been in other holders. I've found them a couple of times. But I've never found them with that much difference. I did buy a gold coin in an ANACS holder with an XF grade, bust it out and send to NGC and it came back AU58. Surprised me. Sometimes I don't know what's up with the TPG's. Can't live with em can't live without em. That's why I like CAC coins - sure, more of the same but ...... better, I think.
  9. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect for 66+ Supporter

    You should look at the "CAC or not to CAC" thread and see how well everyone guessed whether a coin CAC'd or didn't CAC.
  10. ddddd

    ddddd Member

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  11. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

  12. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    What is EAC
  13. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Don’t think you would of spent 58 money on that coin.
  14. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    @green18 must of gave him the good scotch
  15. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    You got a best answer
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
  16. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Supporter! Supporter

    Early American Copper.... a niche group specializing in those coins, I've been told here before. :D
    Cheech9712 likes this.
  17. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Wow that coin shows just how much this grading system bends. Better detail but some obvious ware
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
  18. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect for 66+ Supporter

    Here's a few more Early American Coppers.
    markr, Jack D. Young, CircCam and 2 others like this.
  19. SC CO

    SC CO New Member

    I found this very interesting and helpful, thank you!
    GoldFinger1969 and Jack D. Young like this.
  20. St Gaudens collector

    St Gaudens collector Active Member

    Good thing we have coin-facts as a reference.:D
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  21. Rick B

    Rick B Well-Known Member

    More reasons I don't like slabs. I'm a raw coin guy! (Disclaimer so I don't get abused: I respect slab collectors opinion to like slabs; it's just one guys opinion!)
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
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