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Message:: [QUOTE="GoldFinger1969, post: 7361138, member: 73489"]Which coin we talking about, Jim ? As for the grade difference....to save $$$ sometimes a bulk submitter will just ask that "Gem Proof" (MS65) be given to the coins. It's possible that some are MS66 or higher, but probably not or certainly not many (he'd be losing big $$$ if he had PF70 and PF69 coins simply called Gem Proof). So Gem Proofs are almost certainly MS65 or MS65ish....and a truly pristine coin is usually PF70 or PF69. I have to say...I have a Gem Proof modern commemorative....I am not sure it's a PF70 but there is no way I can see ANYTHING that takes it to PF65.  Maybe it's PF69 even PF68.  But no lower. Maybe a vet can chime in here.....the LOWEST PF I've got is a PF68.  If something is Proof, it's highly unlikely it will get graded only PF65 or even lower.  So I wonder why dealers go for that Gem Proof label unless it's a small number of coins from multiple purchases.  I don't see how you could get that many Proof (or Mint State)65's straight from the Mint. You'd expect higher numbers -- I think.[/QUOTE]