Roman Coin Denomination AE 24 and AE 26???????? Philip I

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by ArtDeco, Apr 13, 2021.

  1. ArtDeco

    ArtDeco =ArtDeco=

    Hello, I just purchased these 2 Roman bronze coins of Philip I and I'm confused between the denominations of these coins.

    The styles are nearly identical with the exception of the left eagle position on the reverses,

    http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?param=&vpar=1382&zpg=99722&fld=

    https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/ga...antioch_philip_2449_ae24/1361883/Default.aspx



    Now I realize that these coins aren't documented in the RIC classification, according to Forvm they're cited as " SNG BnF 1261 "


    On the Forvm coin, the weight is 10.5 g. 26.1mm and a AE 26 denomination and the Vcoins one with the weight of 8.63 g. 25mm with a AE 24 denomination.


    What are these denominations? I don't have any info on these anywhere online, are these Nummus/Follis coins?
    I though AE was a classification of Roman Bronze Coins based on size.

    AE1 Larger than 25mm diameter
    AE2 from 21mm – 25mm diameter
    AE3 from 17mm – 21mm diameter
    AE4 under 17mm diameter

    I have yet to recieve either coin still, but I'm curious to get more info on these coins and the denomination info as well.
     
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  3. ambr0zie

    ambr0zie Dacian Taraboste

    Hello and welcome.
    You will not find your coins in RIC as they are not Roman imperial coins, they are provincial, both from Antioch as mentioned by both sellers.
    AE is a term to describe a bronze coin, you will also see this term for Greek coins for example.
     
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  4. ArtDeco

    ArtDeco =ArtDeco=

    Antioch, I beleive is in modern day Turkey, interesting stuff!

    Somehow I thought that they were imperial mints becuase of the legionary eagles on the standards on the reverse.

    So AE 24 and AE 26 is a type of provincial bronze coin? Since it is not imperial, it wouldn't be considered Follies/Nummus?
     
  5. Herodotus

    Herodotus Well-Known Member

    The number represents the diameter of the coin(s). In your case, 24mm and 26mm.

    It's my understanding that the actual name of the denomination is an unknown. So, in these cases, cataloguers reference the coin by its metal type & diameter.

    That stated, the sizes/weights of your coins are very similar to the Imperial As -- which was still in production during Philip I's reign.

    Whether the coins that were minted in Antioch were referred to as such, or if they shared the same value???

    Good question.
     
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  6. ambr0zie

    ambr0zie Dacian Taraboste

    I am not sure about denominations and I don't think it's that simple. For some provincial coins in my experience the true denomination is simply unknown.
    You know about RIC, the equivalent for provincials (sort of) is RPC

    Here is the one you got from Forvm (the seller mentioned RPC Online VIII U3239)
    https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/type/3239

    I cannot find the other one in RPC database but found it on various websites
    https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/ae...sidia_vexillum_and_signa/1370884/Default.aspx
    Again, from my experience - it is not unlikely to find a provincial not listed in RIC, there are A LOT of variations, slightly different (misspelled) legends ....

    Here are some provincial Antiochian I have
    upload_2021-4-13_9-50-58.png

    A coin with a completely messed legend (something like IMP CAE R ASLL OVALHIIR) - after research I cannot determin if it is Volusian or Valerian. Known "issue" for Antioch in that period.

    upload_2021-4-13_9-58-11.png
    For this one I couldn't get an exact match (legend positioning and actual legend spelling) but it is for sure Julia Domna in Antioch with Tyche reverse.
     
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  7. Parthicus

    Parthicus Well-Known Member

    "AE" in ancient numismatics is just a general term used to indicate a coin is of a copper or bronze alloy. When the AE is followed by a number, it is usually because we aren't sure what the original name for the denomination was. Late Roman bronzes traditionally use the AE1 to AE4 scale you quote. Greek bronzes have traditionally been named a bit differently, with AE followed by the diameter in millimeters, so that a Greek "AE23" would be the same size as a late Roman AE2. But, just to make things more confusing, Roman Provincial bronzes are named according to the Greek system (Roman Provincial coins are also called "Greek Imperial" in some references). All clear? Good. Now, to explain why we drive on a parkway and park on a driveway...
     
  8. ArtDeco

    ArtDeco =ArtDeco=

    Very interesting!

    However Vcoins seller was wrong, it is a AE25 not a 24 :happy:


    Yes, would be interesting to know how the value of these provincial bronzes compared to their imperial counterparts.
     
  9. Herodotus

    Herodotus Well-Known Member

    Of worthy note...

    AE provincial coinage was primarily intended for use in the area and in close proximity to where they were minted.

    A traveler arrived to town with Imperial(or Provincial) silver(AR) and was given change in local bronze(AE).

    Would a tavern in Rome accept an AE25 from Antioch as legal tender in place of an Imperial As? I suppose it might 'fly' so-to-speak, but as a general rule; it is likely that most provincial AE coinage remained in the region where it was born.

    So, in theory; Roman provincial AE coinage may or may not have had the same denominational structure as its Imperial counterparts.

    I'm not aware of the Romans having a universal provincial coin standard like the Attic and Corinthian standard systems of earlier Greek coinage.
     
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  10. dltsrq

    dltsrq Grumpy Old Man

    Pisidian Antioch was a Roman colony, administered differently from typical provincial cities. Note that the coins are inscribed in Latin rather than Greek. The module is similar to that of contemporary Imperial asses, which may suggest their function.
     
  11. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Supporter! Supporter

    Hi, @ArtDeco, welcome to the crazy world of ancient numismatics. I see you're confused by the terminology we use and rightfully so.

    I wrote this piece to help collectors new to the field understand the terminology. I hope you'll find it helpful. This paragraph is relevant to your question:

    "For coins of the Roman principate, including colonial and provincial issues, we no longer use the terms "first brass," "large bronze," or Æ I; "second brass" or Æ II (though we still use "middle bronze" when a coin cannot be determined to be an as or dupondius); or "third brass," "small bronze," or Æ III. Rather, we use the name of the denomination when known, such as "sestertius," "quadrans," or "tetrassarion." For provincial coins whose denomination is not known, we use Æ (an abbreviation for aes) plus the diameter in millimeters, such as Æ 24 or Æ 18."​
     
  12. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    We simply do not know really. Provincial coins were only intended to circulate locally, so their relative denominations were local affairs. It was smart of the Romans to allow this, since most cities in the east had long standing, unique coinage systems. The Romans simply let them continue for a long time like that. Now, if it was a silver coin its going to be valued very similarly to Imperial silver, since gold and silver coins were usually circulated based upon real value, (except Egypt which was a whole other animal). However, bronze was always a token coinage from the beginning, meaning it circulated for higher worth than the metal inside.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
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  13. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    I think the best we can do is find the relative values of provincial coins WITH EACH OTHER. Some provincials are marked with denominations, in Greek letters like Beta, Delta, Gamma, etc. so at least we know that this bronze is worth 4 if this bronze, etc, but who knows the exchange rate with imperial coins.
     
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  14. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    It's really tough to tell some denominations' relationship to others; sometimes coins of very different sizes look absolutely identical and nobody knows whether they were different denominations, or just different sizes of the same.

    This is 33mm
    Gordian III AMNG 82 (2020_11_18 03_38_31 UTC).JPG

    This is only 28mm
    Gordian III Moushmov 34.JPG

    Both are the same coin, just I year apart in regnal year.

    Could metal color have distingushed? Possibly. Some early As and Dupondius coins looked rather identical (no radiate crowns or crescents) and the only way to tell the difference was the color - brown for the bronze As and yellow for the brass Dupondius.

    Problem is, by this point most have toned or patinated such that it's pretty impossible to tell which metal it is short of a destructive test. So, people end up calling them "middle bronzes," since they're unsure of the actual denomination.
     
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