Rhodium anyone?? best place to buy? your opinions

Discussion in 'Bullion Investing' started by Shwine617, Jan 14, 2013.

  1. Juan Blanco

    Juan Blanco New Member

    sunflower-
    Please remember this is a fungible COMMODITY. Think not only the 83% consumed annually in the manufacture of three-way catalytic converters (automobile manufacturers), but of all the OTHER different applications & industries that might use Rhodium sometime/somewhere/somehow. There are literally thousands of (small-scale) buyer-types for sponge, think innovative engineering products (particularly entrepreneur-scientists in applied materials.) Google "applied materials, rhodium, patent" and you'll see for yourself.

    On side-left of this webpage, see all the forms in which American Elements sells Rh : http://www.americanelements.com/rh.html

    It's a pricey workbench chemical for MOST buyers, still. In this retail offering, "metallic sponge" is what any small-scale industrial consumer would buy.

    For ingot, it's investors like us. Everyone here should understand that Rhodium bullion is a cutting edge, vanguard investment. I haven't seen the exact percentages for annual Rh consumption in 2012, but I'd guess "investment/speculation" is still less than 2%. (Like Platinum was, in the 1970s.)
     
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  3. Juan Blanco

    Juan Blanco New Member

    In 2010, by allocation Rhodium "Investment" was insignificant or <1% (if this chart is correct.)

    rhodium-demand-2010.png

    In 2011, launch of the first rhodium-backed exchange-traded product {db Physical Rhodium ETC - LONDON} accounted for 17,000 ounces by Year-End: "The rhodium market remains relatively small and niche, although looked at another way, rhodium investment accounted for almost all of the growth in rhodium demand," Johnson Matthey said.

    If 2011 global demand was 906,000 and production was 645,000 Rh/ozt and "Investment Demand" is one Rhodium ETP, Investment was 1.88% of total demand but 2.6357% of total production (fwiw, the ETP sheet indicates the Rh is "Sponge" not ingot.)

    As a baseline to watch for Rhodium as an investment, in early 2012 Norilsk reported (2011) percentages of PMs going towards "Investment Demand" presumably ETPs and coin/bullion:

    35% of Au
    14% Palladium
    8% Platinum
    [~36% Silver]
    [~2-3% Rhodium]

    Estimated production for 2012 was 720,200 ozt/Rh (2012) and 675,200 ozt (2013) a 5% increase from 2011. Increasing "Investment Demand" is seen in the ETP data:

    2011 Rh ETF = 17,000 ozt (Year End)
    2012 Rh ETF = 62,400 ozt (Year End)

    According to recent (Feb. 2013) Bloomberg data, global PM ETPs currently hold:
    19,594.3 metric tonnes Silver (Ag)
    2,506 metric tonnes* Gold (Au)
    67.2 metric tonnes Palladium (Pd)
    51.2 metric tonnes Platinum (Pt)
    51.2 metric tonnes Platinum (Pt)
    1.94 metric tonnes Rhodium (Rh)

    (In December 2012, the GLD ETF held 1,353.3 mt, or 54% of all Gold ETPs. GLD is traded on several exchanges and widely used by non-US investors, but that's the Gold ETP used by American investors. There is no Rhodium ETP readily available to retail American investors. I suppose the creation of a US Rhodium ETP might likewise double global "Investment Demand" for Rh.)

    In late 2012, Scotiabank reported 6% Platinum was "Investment." If 2012 global production of Rh was 720,000, net ETP demand was 56,100 ozt and including NEW retail ingot demand (below), then "Investment Demand" for Rh in 2012 was 56,100 ozt (7.8%) Incidentally, by percentage, more Rh than Pt is now "Investment Demand" up from <1% in 2010.

    Baird's ingot production for retail (still quite miniscule) accounted for ~1.5% of total Rh consumption: up from nothing in one year. This is what I'm talking about!

    This recent Washington Post article by Nick Larkin is informative:
    Here is an interesting annoted chart for Rhodium Price since 1972: http://octafinance.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/rhodium-spot-1972-2011-modified-and-waves.png
     
  4. sunflower

    sunflower New Member

    Juan (and others),
    Juan this is great information. Thank you for posting it. Question: Do you recommend sponge? I was sort of thinking of sponge like gold or silver jewelers beads. My concern with sponge had to do with the paperwork I signed at bank when renting the safety deposit box. They have limits on what a person can store in there. I was not sure if sponge was stable enough to fit the guidelines for safety when considering safety deposit box storage. My gut said not even ask the bank. It might attract too much drama, hazmate and all.

    Thankyou,
     
  5. Juan Blanco

    Juan Blanco New Member

    sunflower-
    The sponge is safe to store.

    I cannot edit the post above, but I've found more (and some different) data on PGMs by Investment Demand. Takeaway:

    Although still miniscule, Rhodium allocated as "Investment Demand" may be higher than Pt or Pd* (by J-M estimates 11/2012)
    Rhodium is 'exploding' while Palladium sinks... Hmmm!

    *Palladium investment demand dropped from 6.7% > 4%, 2011-2012; the Norilsk PGMs est. allocation looks too high!

    The data/study (March 2013) for Pd is here: http://www.napalladium.com/files/12NAP Investor Presentation_March 2013 website.pdf
    Lots of great info there, Pd price forecast compendium (2013-2016) on Page 32.

    J-M Interim 2012 report on PGMs here: http://www.platinum.matthey.com/media/1393522/platinum_2012_interim_review.pdf

    2012: Platinum Supply = 181.6 mt; (estimated to be 15.24 mt) Investment Demand for Pt = 8.4%
    2012: Palladium Supply = 204.3 mt; (estimated to be 11.97 mt) Investment Demand for Pd = 6.6%
     
  6. sunflower

    sunflower New Member

  7. Juan Blanco

    Juan Blanco New Member

    $1,445.00 Goldeneagle
    $1,425.00 Kitco

    And on ebay (incl s/h) for $1,420. - 1,460.

    Figure a 17% premium; given FeeBay's take, the dealer's netting ~2-4% over Spot. I think that's the cheapest retail premium in recorded history for Rh.

    fwiw Rhodium is the ONLY PM that I can imagine doubling in a month or so.
     
  8. sunflower

    sunflower New Member

    Any ideas or speculative senarios that might cause RH to drop 50% in retail price?
     
  9. Juan Blanco

    Juan Blanco New Member

    Nahh. The Rh/Au ratio is near the absolute historical low. The probability of what you're suggesting (from THIS level) is absolutely without precedence. In 200 years.

    otoh, the likelihood Rh will treble or quadruple in price (within 4-6 years) is rather high, I suppose. IF/when that happens, then a ~50% retrace (from .... $8k? $12k?) becomes a possible scenario.

    Rhodium at this discounted price looks sweeeeeet, inflation-proof powercash that's much more convenient to store than Ag.
     
  10. sunflower

    sunflower New Member

    Much compliments Juan.
     
  11. SilverForLife

    SilverForLife Member

    Kind of neat. Not for me, but thanks for posting. It may be a neat idea one day?:hail:
     
  12. NorthKorea

    NorthKorea Dealer Member is a made up title...

    Rhodium down about 40% since this thread was started... remember, everyone, rhodium prices were supported by artificial supply restrictions. It's probably not even a favorable (break even long run) buy until prices settle in under $480/oz.
     
  13. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Good repost.

    When it comes to more exotic metals, caveat emptor. If it never historically been a precious metal, you are betting it not only will go up, but also become a precious metal. Short of that, you will be facing huge buy-sell spreads common in "hobby metals".
     
  14. desertgem

    desertgem MODERATOR Senior Errer Collecktor Moderator

    Many 'advertising sales sources' currently call it a precious metal, which makes me wonder they measured in the Troy system, or the Avoirdupois.
     
  15. NorthKorea

    NorthKorea Dealer Member is a made up title...

    The spot is set by Johnson Matthey in troy oz. In terms of industrial investment in PMGs, iridium may have a better chance than rhodium, since it's absolutely critical for space travel. Rhodium is useful in industry, but as a hardening agent. As much as certain investment sites make claims that rhodium is critical for diesel catalytic converters, it really isn't... not having rhodium welds merely would mean more consumption of the platinum or palladium in the unit.
     
  16. Dougmeister

    Dougmeister The Coin Scavenger © ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    (only Star Wars fans will get this one...)

    Rhodium or Rodian.jpg
     
  17. NorthKorea

    NorthKorea Dealer Member is a made up title...

    Greedo was Rodian... not Rhodium...
     
  18. Dougmeister

    Dougmeister The Coin Scavenger © ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Yeah, that was just a plan on words ;-)
     
  19. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman 2016 Secretary, Red Rose CC

    Huh, since his language sounded Italian to me, I just called him Guido.
     
  20. mariasam

    mariasam New Member

    Well, I know your problem,maybe you can buy Rhodium
    Edit: Maria , you can not advertise where you have an interest in the general forums, only in the footer of your message, and not any part of message. Thanks
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2017
  21. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER" Supporter

    I think this thread need,s a much needed update...LOL
     
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