With all the monetizing of the debt, gold is soaring to record highs. Seems to me with the coin market so volatile right now a good or maybe better bet is to invest in high grade coins along with bullion. I mean many coins are worth thousands of times their weight in bullion. For example, I own a silver VF Julius Caesar denarius that weighs 3.9 grams and its well worth over $1000.00. There will always be serious collectors willing to pay premiums for high grade and rare coins. Eventually bullion will come back down to more reasonable levels....but I think this time it will be awhile.
"Investing" in rare coins is far far more difficult than buying bullion. You need to be able to grade coins properly, detect counterfeits, avoid buying cleaned coins, know what other collectors are likely to want when you resell, and have a good feel for eye appeal. Even if you stick to slabbed coins, you have to know which grading companies to use and which to avoid, which coins in the slab may have been cleaned, which have eye appeal, the difference between a high end MS65 and a low end MS65, and which coins are overgraded inside the slab. If you manage to overcome all of those hurdles, the coin you buy is likely to be expensive compared to average examples. And when you go to resell, you have to be an expert negotiator because whoever you find to buy the coin is likely to know as much or more as you and will be looking to pay as little as possible. It is easier to "invest" using bullion coins and buy coins with high numismatic premiums because you like them and want to own them -- not because you expect to make money with them.
Seems I miss the boat every time...Gold is just too high for me to buy now...I wanted to invest my and my wife's life savings and some money from selling some land in Apple Computer when Steve Jobs came back. I mean every penny. But my wife thought I was nutts. So I decided it wasn't worth a divorce. If I had went ahead and made that investment I would be retired very, very comfy right now. She hates to even bring it up.
You were nuts. The fact that Apple went up is irrelevant, and you should stop bugging your wife over it. Anybody who would put their life savings into a single investment where they did not have a controlling interest should not be permitted to invest money. Even if Apple had gone up, you probably would have found a way to lose it all because of unwarranted overconfidence in your ability and an underappreciation of the luck factor. I like gold a lot, but I would never put more money into it than I could afford to lose even though I believe the probability of gain is greater than the probability of loss.
Investment performance comes and goes, but transaction costs go on forever. Investing in a product like the gold ETF or BullionVault gives you spreads that are a small fraction of a percent. At BullionVault I've seen 9 basis points between bid and asked for six-figure orders, though it's usually not that good. Investing in bullion coins from an Internet dealer exposes you to bid/ask spreads in the 3-5% range, and there's shipping costs to think about. Transaction costs on numismatic coins are far higher. I've seen some numbers, but since I'd only be quoting people who know more than I do, I'll just let one of them talk about how far a rare coin's value would have to rise before you broke even. On the other hand the point of investing is ultimately to add to your happiness, and the emotional rewards of owning something from Julius Caesar's time are just as valid as a dividend check. Assuming you already have enough other investments that you won't have to eat Alpo in your old age.
On the other hand, the ETF [GLD] may or may not actually hold the gold that is implied by the share price. There is nothing in their perspectus that requires them to own or audit the gold. It is purely a tracking stock. Today this isn't important. Someday it might be the only thing that matters. I don't know anything about bullion vault.
GLD does publish a list of the bars they own, and their current inventory makes them the sixth largest holder in the world. To turn into a purely paper-based fund they'd have to liquidate all that, which would be slow and awkward.
The prospectus states that “the Custodian has agreed that it will hold all of the Trust’s gold bars in its own London vault premises except when the gold bars have been allocated in a vault other than the Custodian’s London vault premises.” The prospectus then goes on to explain that other vaults allowed may reside at the Bank of England, Brinks Ltd., Via Mat International, and LBMA (London Bullion Market Association) market making members, and that in turn, these sub-custodians may appoint further sub-custodians to hold the trust’s gold if they so desire. In regard to ensuring that the gold actually exists, the prospectus then states that “the Trustee may have no right to visit the premises of any sub-custodian for the purposes of examining the Trust’s gold bars or any records maintained by the sub-custodian, and no sub-custodian will be obligated to cooperate in any review the Trustee may wish to conduct of the facilities, procedures, records or creditworthiness of such sub-custodian.” In other words, maybe the gold exists and maybe it doesn't. The list of bars you refer to is only a partial accounting of what they are supposed to "own." Personally, I wouldn't touch GLD with my money after all of the frauds that have been uncovered in the past decade.
WEll I wanted to invest in Google's IPO also...but if I had invested in Apple it would have returned MUCH more than Google...so I don't think I'm an idiot. I had and still do have huge confidence in Steve Jobs and Apple. I knew he could turn that company around and also knew that there is going to always be about a 4%-5% share of the computer market that Appple owns. That's a lot for one company with hugely over priced products. Of course I never dreamed the ipod and iphone would be such hits either. And to think we lost 30K in our 401K in one quarter ending June 09 in so called conservative investments! So you invest they way you want...and I'' shoot the moon the way I want. I do research a Company's profile for a long time. I don't just blindly invest. But if I had not sold my Apple stock yet, if I had indeed bought in I would now. Windows 7 is the best operating system I've ever used. Hands down it blows Mac OS x away. Microsoft would be a pretty safe bet right now...I have Windows 7 Ultimate and its amazing...puts every OS MS or Apple ever put out to shame.
". . . I wouldn't touch GLD with my money after all of the frauds that have been uncovered in the past decade. . ." I agree. What a sad country we are when the U.S, economic engine of the world, becomes/has been a fraud. Recently read a couple of articles that describe how Goldman Sachs has manipulated/raped the US economy (and the world) for short term profits. Just read another one that describes how Obama has staffed his economic staff with Goldman Sachs and Citigroup execs and alumni so we can look for more of the same 'til there's nothing left to steal. Also Goldman Sachs stands to make trillions from the Carbon Trading (scam) market.
Off Topic But I couldn't Resist ". . . WEll I wanted to invest in Google's IPO also...but if I had invested in Apple it would have returned MUCH more than Google...so I don't think I'm an idiot. . . " The only true measure of investment success is your portfolio's bottom line. Coulda, woulda, shoulda, if only I had not listened to my wife, etc doesn't cut it. ". . . I had and still do have huge confidence in Steve Jobs and Apple. I knew he could turn that company around and also knew that there is going to always be about a 4%-5% share of the computer market that Appple owns.. . " Steve Jobs IS Apple Computers. Without Jobs Apple withers and dies. You're willing to bet the farm on a guy recovering from pancreatic cancer and a liver transplant. Bernie Madoff has been looking for you. ". . . And to think we lost 30K in our 401K in one quarter ending June 09 in so called conservative investments!. . . " no response necessary ". . . Windows 7 is the best operating system I've ever used. Hands down it blows Mac OS x away. Microsoft would be a pretty safe bet right now...I have Windows 7 Ultimate and its amazing...puts every OS MS or Apple ever put out to shame. . . " M$ finally got a winner. You need to look at Apples growing market share. it's small but there is a trend. Others will argue Micro$oft is an also ran after Windows 7 runs it course. Like it or not Cloud computing is here. The Cloud doesn't care if you use linux, Apple OS or Windows or what ever. Sales of Microsoft Office (real POS and M$ biggest money maker) will be irrelevent. The non M$ Office suite lives in the Cloud. Micro$oft's mobile phone OS? It's history on the way out because Google Android phone OS will probably to rule mobile phone world. M$ is cash rich but drowning in potentially obselete products. Better take another look at Google. Just remembered another cash cow killer for Microsoft - At least one large city as dropped M$ Exchange Server and moved to the Cloud for free. Another trend. I haven't yet sold my Microsoft stock but will and replace it with Cloud related companies. Hello Google. What do I know? Only twenty years working with Microsoft products on an enterprise level.
There are a lot of paper-trading millionaires out there, but a lot fewer who actually use real money.
Rare Gold I think early gold can be a way that you can have your cake and eat it too. I bought a 1799 $10 piece in PC61 about 10 years ago for $9500. I did sell it after a while, but all those early US gold and silver pieces have increased substantially in value. Ancient gold requires real knowledge about how rare and desirable the coin is. There is no CDN on those, they can be graded and appraised, but not like US coins.
"I think early gold can be a way that you can have your cake and eat it too. I bought a 1799 $10 piece in PC61 about 10 years ago for $9500. . . " Absolutely. Went to two gold coin auctions over the weekend but didn't come close to buying anything. Everything went for 3 - 4 times over estimates. Even the comtemporary St Gauden's sold for more than they are worth after facturing in auction comissions.
Auctions Heritage's Signature Auction showed some strong interest. Type 1 $20 Liberties seem to be showing a lot of interest: http://coins.ha.com/common/search_results.php?Ne=304&N=51+790+231+4294959070+321 What were some of the prices you saw for gold coins? I'm going to download the current December Quarterly III at CDN this afternoon. I expect a lot of plusses! https://www.greysheet.com/Commerce/scripts/subscription_form.asp
Greysheet CDN shows mainly dealer to dealer, sight seen prices. For example, it shows most $20 Libs moving up in the current issue to $1375 as a base price and $1415 in AU. If you want to sell, will you get those prices? Not likely--maybe Heritage or U.S. Coins will pay it but only if they are NGC/PCGS certified. I brought some $20s to the last Baltimore Show and I was paid AU money for ANACS certified BU $20s. If you are buying you may be able to buy a little above those prices, depending on the dealer. Then there is "Bluesheet" which is rock bottom pricing for certified coins. Dealers like to buy at Bluesheet price.
