[Poll-9] #10 Cucumbor vs #23 Parthicus (Round 1) CIT 2018

Welcome to Round 1 of CIT 2018! If you are unaware of the tournament I invite you to get caught up with all the fun on the following link:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/an...annual-coin-imperator-tournament-2018.320328/



I want to give a special thank you to the participants for volunteering to play the game. We have a great group of people here at CT.

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#10 @Cucumbor


Augustus & Agrippa, AE Dupondius Nemausus mint, after 10 CE
4th type
IMP DIVI F PP, Laureate heads of Augustus looking right and Agrippa looking left, back to back
COL NEM, Crocodile chained to palm tree
13,52 gr
Ref : RCV # 1731, Cohen # 8

Price: $210

Why It’s Cool:
What appealed to me on this coin were the distinctive portraits, especially that of Agrippa, and the good centering on both sides with a crocodile almost complete, despite some pitting on the patina. A quick search through Vcoins and CNG will give you an idea of how much coins with portraits this nice go for. I consider it a great bargain.

Historical background : At the Battle of Actium in 31 BCE the forces of Octavian, commanded by Marcus Agrippa, soundly defeated Marcus Antonius and his Egyptian allies marking the practical end of the civil wars that had racked the final days of the Roman Republic. In the cleanup campaign after the battle, Octavian’s legions marched into Egypt and secured it as a Roman province, thus ending the independence of the longest lasting major Hellenistic Kingdom. The veterans of this campaign where allowed to retire and settle in the south of France (when they retire, everyone want to settle either in Florida or on the French Riviera, but at that time Florida wasn’t as popular as it’s nowadays). Many of these veterans were given money and land in the town of Nemausus. Nemausus (today Nîmes) is famous worldwide for the astounding physical remains of Rome’s glorious past: the la maison carrée, the arènes and the pont du Gard being the most notable.


Le pont du Gard, image courtesy of http://www.avignon-et-provence.com

There are four different types of the Nemausus dupondius, issued irregularily from 28 BCE to 14 CE. The this example being a type IV that you recognize with the title of Pater Patriae (P. P.) given to Augustus in 2 BCE.

Some scholars assume the design of this coin to derive from the former Janus asses, the two heads of Agrippa and Augustus recalling Janus bifrons and the croc having somehow the shape of the prow you see on the reverses of that type. On some specimens the croc’s snout actually has the shape of a prow of a galley. The veterans at Nemausus who must have had a hand in choosing the design were clearly referencing their military exploits under Octavian and Agrippa. The collar and chain holding the croc to the palm tree are said to symbolize the annexation of Egypt by Octavian’s legions resulting from the victory at Actium. Agrippa wears the rostral crown (a crown literally made up of the prows of ships) for having been victorious at this naval battle. Augustus wears the laurel wreath of triumph.

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#23 @Parthicus


Phoenicia, Arados. King Gerashtart (Gerostrates) (c.350-332 BC), Regnal Year 15.
AR stater (17mm, 10.38g).
Obverse: Bust of Ba'al-Arwad (Lord of Arados) right.
Reverse: Galley right on waves within pellet border, Phoenician inscription above MA (Malik Arwad “King of Arados”) 15.
Cf. Sear "Greek Coins and Their Values" 5977. This coin: Ex CNG 311, lot 842, ex CNG 249, lot 189.
Purchased from Del Parker at the Baltimore coin show in November, 2017

Price: $500

Why It’s Cool:
Arados (Arwad), located on an island about 2 miles off the Syrian coast, was one of the main cities of the Phoenician civilization which dominated maritime trade in the Mediterranean for centuries. Military galleys like the one on this coin enforced Phoenician dominance, and when the Achaemenid Persians conquered the Phoenicians, the Phoenician war-galleys formed the core of the feared Persian fleet. This coin was issued by King Gerashtart just a few years before Alexander the Great swept into Syria in 332 BC as part of his campaign to conquer the vast Persian Empire. Gerashtart, realizing which way the wind was blowing, immediately submitted to Alexander, who confirmed him in his rule and accepted Gerashtart’s ships into his taskforce besieging the much larger Phoenician city of Sidon. In addition to all that history, I like this coin for the way it fits all the main design elements on an irregular flan, and for the rather expressive portrait of the local deity on the obverse. All in all, it’s a beautiful chunk of history.


Satellite image of Arados (Wikipedia)

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A Gentle Reminder
We have had a remarkably fun and friendly tournament so far and I want to thank all of our members who have contributed and commented Let's continue to do a good job of keeping our tournament friendly! Instead of focusing comments too much on why you didn't vote for one coin over the other try to focus on why you did vote for the one you chose!

Remember that everyone gets 3 votes to choose which coin you think comes out on top in each of the three categories. With that I will open the floor to comments, pile-ons and shameless lobbying.

 

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I'm a fan of both of these so it will be a split decision. My coin has an unveven strike.


I love it when the flan shape fits the design but mine lost all the waves.

 

To me, this is the toughest yet. Like @dougsmit said, Split decision.

 

I like both coins and their write ups, but you can't go past a good croc coin for eye appeal. I might as well post mine but we will have to be careful we don't turn this into another ICONIC CROCODILE THREAD.

 

Both are super coins! Great matchup between two heavy-weights!

I have a wee version of the Phoenician Stater:

Tyre 1/16 shekel 10mm 0.47g hippocamp l over waves - owl with crook flail Sear Greek 5916.BMC Tyre 43 SNG Danish 302

And I like the Agrippa too

RI Augustus oak crown Agrippa rostral crown L AE Dupondius 26mm 12.6g 10-14CE Nemausus chained Croc snake wreaths RIC I 158

 

Well this is difficult!!

Parthicus' coin: How that shape of flan contained so many elements of the coin's essence is spectacular.. 2300+ years later here we are. What an amazing piece of history!
Cucumbor's coin: But the crocodile! Such an awesome design... we have seen better definition on the crocodile itself - but those portraits are beyond what I have seen displayed. The centering of the strike, the toning.. and the portraits - very powerful!

Need to sleep on it!!

 

Like Doug, I like both types, and it's not easy to get either as nice as the examples shown. Good going making our jobs tough, guys!

 

Well played @Parthicus !
I appreciate the very quaint choice on your part, with beautiful portrait and galley (I still prefer mine though ).
As I did last year, being curious of how things go, I allow myself to cast two votes, one to each contestant, when personnaly involved, to follow the vote, but not influencing the result.

Thanks again @Curtisimo for all the work and fun !

Q

 

Thanks @Cucumbor! I like your coin very much- it's a type that's been on my want list for a while now, and your beautiful example shows all the main design elements quite clearly. Looks like we're running pretty even in the Eye Appeal and Historical/ Numismatic Interest categories, but you've got the advantage on Best Bargain. Oh, well- I don't regret buying this coin at the price I paid. Thanks @Curtisimo for running this contest again- even if I lose, I had fun competing.

 

Great coins! I really enjoyed the writeups. It was a tough decision.

I ised to have a lifetime Alexander tet minted in Sidon in 332 BC!

 

Nice ones guys! Love the COL NEM! Really is a challenge considering both coins fit all their major design elements on the flan.

 

What a daring move, Cukie! COL NEMS are extremely popular here on CoinTalk (and everywhere) and of course the history and iconography are wonderful. They aren't always "winners" in the looks department and often they aren't bargain either, but your coin seems to be hitting the marks . Well played!

@Parthicus-- that's a great coin, a type I hope to get someday.

I do have a COL NEM or two though...


Augustus & Agrippa
struck c. 10 BCE - CE 10, Nemausus
AE dupondius
Obv: IMP/DIVI F, back-to-back heads of Agrippa, in combined rostral crown & laurel wreath, and Augustus, laureate
Rev: COL - NEM; palm tree, top bent top right with a wreath above; crocodile chained to palm tree
Ref: RIC 158; AMC 425; Cohen 10; RPC 524
From the collection of a Man of the Cloth, who acquired the coin in the 1990s and now giving up the pursuit of coins

 

Crocodiles are cute!



Erin

 

Still time to weigh in and vote on these two fantastic and historic coins if you have not done so already. The polls will close this evening!

I will pile on with my nem croc though I have been advised by a good CT friend that I will need to revise my attribution

 

Well. I do not have any "ancient Crocodile" coins But.....
I will get into trouble now, I have a "Komodo Drago n"

 

Now to business at hand, I really like both coins, so it will be very difficult to decide between Parthicus and Cucumbor. I will probably have a dream about then tonight....

 

Another fun match comes to an end.

Results
#10 @Cucumbor - 114 Winner
#23 @Parthicus - 48

Both contestants played really fantastic coins. This was one of my favorite matches and was a tough decision on all counts. Thank you to both players

@Cucumbor will advance to take on @BenSi in Round 2.

 

Congratulations to @Cucumbor, good luck in the next round!

Though I do wish the final score had been a little closer. Feels a bit like Wabash College playing UNC in the first round of the NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament Maybe next year I should play a less expensive coin to get more points in the "best bargain" category?

 

I think for most, if not everyone, the decision was much closer than the score. For each category the decision for me was closer to a 45% to 55% split than to an obvious winner.

I had circled this match in my mind as one to watch because I thought these coins were evenly matched... and still do. Remember the game is not supposed to be about what is the most favored coin (I have already given less votes to my favored coin on several matches) but about the category strategy and the only possible way to split ones vote is between the categories.

A lot of players seem to be finding it more effective to completely abandon 1 of the three categories and make a play for the other two based on what they guess their opponent will play. Expensive coins can do well but they have been generally needing to carry the other two categories convincingly so far.

 

Congrats @Cucumbor!! Good luck battling @BenSi in round 2.