[Poll-26] #10 Cucumbor vs #15 Jay GT4 (Round 3) CIT 2018

Is everyone ready to see the equivalent of an epic biga race between two fantastic CoinTalkers?!! (I was going to do quadrigas but got lazy...)

Welcome to Round 3 everyone! If you are unaware of the tournament I invite you to get caught up with all the fun in the master thread;

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/an...annual-coin-imperator-tournament-2018.320328/



The winner of this match will be moving on to the semifinals! A big thank you to all of our participants. Without further ado…

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#10 @Cucumbor


Republic, Didrachm (Quadrigatus) Rome or other Italian mint, c 215-211 BCE
Laureate janiform head of Dioscuri
ROMA in relief in linear frame at exergue, Jupiter, holding thunderbolt in right hand and scepter in left hand, in fast quadriga driven right by Victory.
6,69 gr - 20-21 mm
Ref : Crawford # 28/1, RCV #33, RSC # 24

Price: $395

Why It’s Cool:
- Because it was struck during the first stages of the 2nd Punic War! The 2nd Punic War pitted the Roman Republic against the might of Carthage under Hannibal and was one of the most important events in Roman (and even world) history.

- Because it’s a didrachm! These coins are really nice in-hand. The larger diameter and weight make a huge difference when compared to a denarius.

- Because it was the last pre-denarius silver denomination: At the height of the 2nd Punic War the Roman economy was in such a shambles that the old monetary system was abandoned and replaced with a system based on the denarius in about 211 BCE. The quadrigati come in several varieties and can be categorized depending on their alloy, neck truncation on obverse, incuse or raised ROMA on reverse and many other details.

- Because it features Janus on the obverse. A quadrigatus has been on my list for decades, but finding one filling all the criteria is tough. One sometimes has to make difficult choices and to keep it affordable I had to decide which, of style, good metal or preservation, was the most important. When I saw this one, I knew I had to go for style.

- Because it has a quadriga on the reverse which is always cool because we all remember Charlton Heston as Ben Hur when we were young (well some of us, old things as we are).



History:
By the middle of the 3rd century BCE the Carthaginian Empire encompassed all of North Africa, Corsica and Sardinia as well as parts of southern Spain and western Sicily. Rome and Carthage first came into conflict during the First Punic War (264 – 241 BCE) when rouge mercenaries who had seized the town of Messina asked the Roman Republic for an alliance against Carthage. After many costly battles on land and sea the Romans defeated Carthage and forced a series of devastating peace terms on their defeated foe which included the loss of Sicily and a massive war indemnity.

In the aftermath of the first war Carthage expanded into Spain in an effort to secure the resources to pay the indemnity to Rome. However, in 219 BCE the staunchly anti-Roman Carthaginian general Hannibal and his troops laid siege to and destroyed the Roman-allied Iberian city of Saguntum (today Sagunt in the suburbs of Valencia, Spain). This prompted a Roman declaration of war on Carthage in the spring of 218 BCE. In response, Hannibal marched his army across Spain and Gaul, crossed the Pyrénées Mountains, and (most famously) crossed the Alps in snowy conditions to reach the north of Italy. As someone who lives near the Alps I can attest that even to this day the image of Hannibal and his troops riding their elephants is very vivid in the mind of people around there.


Elephant's Under the Command of Hannibal (Wikipedia)

Once Hannibal and his army had entered Italy they moved from one astonishing victory to another over the course of a 16 year campaign: Trebia in 218 BCE, the shores of Lake Trasimene in 217 BCE, and finally the famous Battle of Cannae* in 216 BCE. At Cannae in southern Italy in 216 BCE, Hannibal defeated the largest army the Romans had ever assembled, killing or capturing more than 67,000 Roman soldiers. After the death or imprisonment of 130,000 Roman troops as a result of these three battles over the course of two years, 40% of Rome's Italian allies defected to Carthage, giving her control over most of southern Italy.

The devastating setbacks of this period of the war are reflected in the coins such as my new Quadrigatus. As Rome’s financial situation became dire as her allies defected and the silver that had been stockpiled in the treasury from the Carthaginian war indemnity began to dry up the senate was forced to debase the Quadrigatus coins to such a degree that inflation became a real problem. The situation was so bad that when new silver became available again the Romans had no choice but to abandon the didrachm based monetary system in favor of the denarius as a means to reassure the legionaries that their salaries were being paid in good silver. In a way, these Quadrigatus coins are one of the many Roman casualties in that great struggle with Hannibal.

*Please note: Cannae, Italy is not to be confused with Cannes, France, even though the battle was a real “festival” to the benefit of Carthage. Also note the Hannibal we talk about is not Dr. Hannibal Lecter, as there is no evidence of him being at the Cannae festival at the time of the 2nd Punic War.


Hannibal (www.brunoviard.fr)

Anyway, by 203 BCE the Romans had gotten their act together and Hannibal was forced to face a Roman invasion of North Africa, led by the general Scipio. Hannibal’s defeat at Zama in 202 BCE ended the 2nd Punic War soon afterwards.

As a conclusion allow me now to quote David Vagi who gave a nice write up about these didrachms:

“Silver Quadrigatus Roman coinage was fortified during the Second Punic War. In addition to gold coins, the Romans issued copper and silver coins, sometimes in enormous quantities. The principal silver coin of the war was a reduced-weight didrachm called a "quadrigatus" after its reverse design, a four-horse chariot (quadriga) bearing Victory and Jupiter. There are many varieties of quadrigati, as revealed by differences in die engraving, metal purity and production standards, not to mention subtle variations of the main design. This suggests that several mints issued quadrigati at different times, and under quite different circumstances. The double-head on the obverse usually is described as the god Janus because of its distinctive form, but the faces are of young men, and it more likely represents the Dioscuri, the gods Castor and Pollux, who were credited with saving Rome at the Battle of Lake Regillus nearly three centuries before."​

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#15 @Jay GT4


Roman Consul Brutus in center accompanied by two lictors
KOΣΩN in ex. BR monogram on left. Eagle standing left on scepter, wings open raising wreath in left claw.Eastern mint, Dacia? 43-42 B.C.8.38gChoice aUNCRPC I 1701; BMC Thrace p. 208, 1; BMCRR II 48; Crawford 433/1Ex-ANE, Ex CNG

Price: $1,200

Why It’s Cool:
I was attracted to the coin for several reasons. First, the coin is in near mint state. Second, where else can you get the equivalent of an Imperatotial gold aureus for so cheap? And finally, after discussing the type with Robert Kokotailo for hours I became convinced it was indeed minted by Brutus. He has since laid out his theory which is partially quoted below:

"The coins known as Koson gold staters have been a mystery since the examples were found in the Transylvanian region, in the 16th century. There are two different but both widely accepted theories as to who minted them, when, where and why.

The first theory, which goes back to the 19th century, assume Koson staters were struck in 43 to 42 BC by Marcus Junius Brutus (assassin of Julius Caesar) from a treasure provided to him by the Roman Senate, for the purpose of raising an army to defend the Republic against forces loyal to the now dead Julius Caesar. A battle Brutus lost to Octavian at Philippi in 42 BC. This theory generally assumes the KOΣΩN inscription names a Dacian king, possibly Cotiso, whose troops Brutus may have hired. These coins are usually found in modern Romania and this theory assumes they arrived there with troops returning home after the battle.

The second theory, which has gained favor recently, say Koson staters were struck in either Dacia (modern Romania) or ancient Thrace (Northern Greece), possibly by the same King Cotiso or another King named Koson who was never mentioned by ancient historians. This associates them with a series of Geto-Dacian coins normally imitating Roman Republican silver denarii and does not associate them with Brutus or a Senate treasure. They are assumed to date from the mid 1st century BC, generally assuming after 42 BC, and are assumed to be found in Romania because they were minted there."


Left – Site of pre-Roman gold mines in Dacia (modern Transylvania). Right – Ancient Dacian mine shaft. (Wikipedia)

"The obverse depicts three walking figures, normally with what might be a BR monogram to the left, and the inscription KOΣΩN below. This obverse is derived from Marcus Junius Brutus' denarius of 54 BC which depicts an accensus walking before three figures representing L. Junius Brutus between two lictors, with BRVTVS below. On the gold staters the accensus is left off, the BR of BRVTVS moved up and to the left, and BRVTVS has been replaced by KOΣΩN.

The reverse closely copies the 70 BC denarius of Q. Pomponius Rufus, but with the eagle's head turned left, plus the scorpion and inscriptions left off. The depiction of an eagle holding a wreath and scepter in its claws is very unusual and to the best of my knowledge does not occur on any other Roman coins. Eagles normally are presenting a wreath by holding in its beak. I believe this depiction of the wreath and scepter in the claws represents the eagle ripping them away from someone."


Image courtesy of CNG (Rufus)

Dacian was a distinct language, widely spoken across that region until about the 5th century AD. It is now a dead language with only one or two short inscriptions known, not enough to tell us much about the grammar and language structure, but those inscriptions use a mix of Greek and Latin alphabets, although it is likely they used Greek letters prior to Trajan's annexation of Dacia just after 100 AD, and the mix of Latin came in later. Unfortunately, beyond some personal and place names, and a few words derived from them, little is now known of the language, although it is definitely not a Greek dialect.

What I propose as the meaning of KOΣΩN requires it to be split it into two parts. The first is KOΣ which can be a Greek Alphabet transliterated of COS, the Roman abbreviation for CONSUL using the Greek K for the Latin hard C, but still pronounced COS. If Brutus were addressing Greek speaking people, he could have used the Greek word Hypatos, but the Dacians were not Greek speaking and it is likely they did not have a word for Consul. A word that pronounces as COS, but written in an alphabet Dacians were familiar with, is something they might have understood.

The second part is the ΩN suffix which in Greek grammar implies from the or of the. Technically it makes it plural but Greek inscriptions of the period often use it without intending the plural. We do not know enough about the Dacian language to know if this suffix had meaning there, or if they even had an equivalent, but Brutus would have understood it and may have assumed the Dacian's would too. In this context if we now consider the BR monogram as short for Brutus, KOΣΩN BR becomes "from the consul Brutus".

An additional feature of Koson staters with the BR monogram are odd, choppy, surface textures consistent with a celator preparing the surface of the dies with a gouging tool and not smoothing them before use as was done to most ancient dies."
​

To read the full article from Calgary coin website by Robert Kokotailo, including a metallurgical report:

http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/articles/koson/koson.htm

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A Gentle Reminder
The first two rounds went about as well as anyone could have hoped from the perspective of keeping the commentary fun, interesting and friendly. It would be a challenge to run a tournament of this type on almost any other board but with the great people here on CT it has been both an honor and a pleasure. Lets try to keep up with the perfect score in the friendliness department by concentrating comments on why you liked an entry instead of why you didn't like the other.

Remember that everyone gets 3 votes to choose which coin you think comes out on top in each of the three categories. With that I will open the thread for comments, opinions, coin pile-ons and random posting of coin things as you see fit.

 

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This is going to be like Ben Hur...EPIC!

 

It's so unfair that there has to be a winner, both coins are epic. Both could easily be winners on any given day.

 

..and now the big guns come out!...woo...voting here may require some.. contemplation

 

No freaking idea here! Just beautiful stuff.
I'm gonna have to quote Keanu...

 

Both coins are the envy of any collection. Each is simply wonderful.

 

I knew this was going to be a fantastic showdown even before I saw the coins from the players.

I don't have any coins associated with Brutus ...but I do have a coin related to the Second Punic War.

Below is my example of the first denarius, introduced in 211 BC to replace the Q's quadrigatus. it's my favorite denarius and one of my favorite coins in general!


Roman Republic
Second Punic War (218 – 201 BC)
Anonymous AR Denarius, Rome Mint, struck ca. 211 BC
Wt.: 4.2 g
Dia.: 20 mm
Obv.: Helmeted head of Roma right. X in left field
Rev.: Dioscuri galloping right. ROMA in exergue and partially incuse on raised tablet
Ref.: Crawford 44/5. Sydenham 167. RBW 169.

Write up:
The Story of the Coin Struck to Fight Hannibal: The First Denarius and its Influence

 

Wow, did I suddenly wake up to a finals match? Seriously awesome coins, guys. The Koson is real eye candy, with an intriguing numismatic theory to go with it. The quadrigatus is a beauty in its own right, a seminal piece of Roman history, and a total bargain IMHO. Also, kudos to Q for the phenomenal job he did writing it up!

 

Wow, shocker!! I was stunned to see such a large divide in the voting.

To me, Q's coin clearly wins the Best Bargain category. It is a rare coin and he paid under current market value for condition. In comparison, Heritage alone has sold 20 of those Thracian Dynasts AV staters in NGC "MS" slabs in the last four months alone and except for two they all brought $800-950 + BP.

However and as Curtis has noted before, "bargain", like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

As for the Historical or Numismatic interest category, even before deducting points for Jay's copy-and-paste writeup I thought Q's coin embodied greater history. Robert Kokotailo's theory about the Koson is interesting though.

The gold coin is beautiful. As the article Jay quoted noted, these all suffer from "odd, choppy surface textures" but it is still a pretty coin. Q's coin has a better design and artistry (just my opinion) but it does suffer due to some porosity and scratches.

That nitpicking aside, I'd gladly own either coin!

 

You know, my family house in Italy is in the mountains above the Savuto river in southern Italy. In ancient times it was known as Sturni. It's just a few kilometers from the ancient Brettian city of Terina where coins were minted. A Republican era Roman bridge crosses the river just at the bottom of our mountain and it's even called Hannibal's bridge, so my personal connection is closer to Cucumbor's coin than to my own! A Quadrigatus is definitely on my list of coins to get and Cu's coin is gorgeous, I'd love to own it!

In my defense, I copied and pasted because it's my anniversary this week and didn't have time to write up my own small essay...although it looks like I just did... .

 

@TIF needs to be a campaign manager. I can't believe that just happened.. .

 

For the record, I split my vote. Q for bargain and history, Jay for eye appeal.

 

I think you may garner more respect on this forum than you think. Hahaha.

 

I'm with @TIF. Except my vote for history went Jays ways. I've read up on it and DO believe this to be made by THE Brutus. Rightly or wrongly, the man gets credit for killing the most prolific man of all time. The other JC and ATG3 not withstanding.

 

...though admittedly, I didn't notice the copy and paste job and had assumed this a very well thought out essay

 

I gotta defend my countryman on the bargain category... on acsearch those Heritage Koson slabs are outliers to some extent, and if you order a search of quadrigati by price, there are a number in recent years that challenge Q's on quality for less money. So on both sides there are similar coins for less.

This is a super close match on all three categories*... as it should be! Is that a first for the tournament?

*Except maybe for the copy-paste penalty... but Jay made a good save there with the anniversary move. Happy Anniversary, Jay! Which one of you married up?

 

Two wonderful coins submitted by two members from countries that share a long
and very meaningful bond...





The coins are spectacular ... this will go down to the wire!

P.S. Jay - happy Anniversary!

 

Regardless of who wins we know that Jay is going to get pegged in the head by a green ball and Q is going to get poked in the side with an imperial standard... epic battle!

I thought even before I posted that this would be a contest on all three fronts. Q's coin has impeccable style with imperfect preservation while J has fantastic preservation but lacks the artistic flair of the Greek influenced didrachm (at least to me). Toss up.

Q got a bargain, no doubt. In fact if I saw this coin for that price I would buy without a second thought. All Koson staters are a bargain at current market value IMO. Try to get any other imperitorial or early imperial gold in high grade for $1,200... not gonna happen.

I was very interested in how the history would play out here. Hannibal era Roman Republic vs Brutus. Two of the most recognizable names in history. It's a toss up for me as well on this one but I do think Q takes a slight edge here with the fantastic write up.

 

Thanks guys. I definitely married up!

This is just a joke

 

Here's some instructions on how to make your own French flag to show your support for our friend @Cucumbor



Now, I don't want to be accused of being biased for the French, so here is a patriotic picture of the Canadian White House to show support for our dear friend @Jay GT4



And a picture of the Prime Minister of Canada:


Justin Trudeau