[Poll-18] #17 dougsmit vs #32 zumbly (Round 2) CIT 2018

Hello everyone and welcome to Round 2 of the 2018 CoinTalk Imperator Tournament! If you are unaware of the tournament I invite you to get caught up with all the fun in the master thread;

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/an...annual-coin-imperator-tournament-2018.320328/



A big thank you to all of our participants. Without further ado…

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#17 @dougsmit


Augustus AE as 26mm 10.85g 10-7 BC Lugdunum mint
CAESAR PONT MAX l. hd. rt.
ROM ET AVG altar
Millennium Sear 1690, RIC 230, C 240
Countermarked on reverse TIB C AVF in rectangular box with extension to accommodate the tall I

Price: $65

Why It’s Cool:
Bargain: Purchased from Don Zauche's half price box at a coin show in 2017.

On 1 August, 10 BC, the city of Lugdunum dedicated its new altar to Rome and Augustus. The dedication was set for the first day of the month honored by being renamed in honor of the Emperor. Bronze coins in a series of sizes were issued showing the altar. Of that series, the most common is the copper as. Much of what we know about the altar comes from well preserved coins, particularly the larger sestertii. You will see some variations in descriptions of the figures shown in different references. Most clear are the two Victories on tall columns flanking the altar. The coins stopped after about three years but were revived near the end of the reign with a different (longer) obverse legend and a parallel issue in the name of Tiberius Caesar.

Our coin is special due to the countermark on the reverse. It reads TIB C AVF with the AVF ligate. This reads TIBerius Caesar Filius (son) of AVgustus. Most unusual is the way the I and B of TIB were formed into a ligature. Since the I would disappear completely into the straight stroke of the B, it was raised up but that ran into the top of the rectangular box which had to be bumped out a bit to accommodate the tall I. To me that is a cool extension on a cool countermark carefully aligned on a cool coin issued to commemorate a cool altar dedicated in a hot month. Well, we can't all be cool, can we?

I have been told that this countermark is “Martini 32” but I really don't like quoting references I have not seen.http://www.romancoins.info/CMK-Lugdunum-Aug-Part2.html#MP32

I have not seen other examples of this mark on these asses but there are several marks found on the series including some more simply TIB. Why was the mark applied? I do not know. What other coin types bore this mark? What did 'Martini' have to say about it? (Does anyone have this collection reference?). I consider this coin the coolest of my eligible entries (January 2017 to July 2018) even though many people consider countermarks a form of damage. Frequently countermarks are placed in such a way that they damage design on one side or the other of the coin. Many are applied to coins already well worn or otherwise compromised. This coin is above average in these respects. All things considered, the coolest thing about this coin is that it found a collection (mine) where it is appreciated.

In researching this write-up, I found a note stating that the altar remained in place until Septimius Severus remodeled the temple complex after defeating Clodius Albinus but details and what happened later are not known. Since I collect Septimius, how cool is that?

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#32 @zumbly


THESSALY, Larissa
AR Hemidrachm. 2.96g, 17.3mm. THESSALY, Larissa, circa 460-420 BC. Lorber, Thessalian, Series 4, 18c (O10/R9) = CH 9, 77, inv. D/E-2-12 (this coin); BCD Thessaly I –; cf. BCD Thessaly II 178; HGC 4, 459 var. (horse left). O: Bull wrestler (Thessalos) running left, kausia behind neck, placing band around head of bull forepart leaping left; TO below. R: Λ-A-P-I, forepart of bridled horse right within incuse square.
Ex BCD Collection; ex Thessaly hoard, circa 1996 (CH 9, 77, inv. D/E-2-12)

Price: $64

Why It's Cool:
This is not my first Thessalian hemidrachm of the taurokathapsia type, but it’s by far my least costly example, yet also one of my favorites. It’s attractively toned, shows some beautiful reticulation of its 2,400 year old silver, and it even comes with the best possible pedigrees for one of these, being formerly of the BCD Collection. In addition, the coin has also been catalogued as part of Catharine Lorber's die study of Larissa hemidrachms in her paper, Thessalian Hoards and the Coinage of Larissa (AJN Second Series 20, 2008).

These charming and distinctive 'bull wrestler' hemidrachms were issued in several cities in Thessaly in the mid 5th century BC, celebrating what was essentially a national sport amongst the fierce and fractious Thessalian tribes.

A region of fertile, grassy plains with Mount Olympus serving as a backdrop, Thessaly was a frontier land and considered something of a cultural backwater. Yet, the Thessalians did a number of things better than your average Athenian or Corinthian, amongst them, rear and ride the finest horses in all of Greece, and wrestle bulls.

Unlike the Cretan sport of bull-leaping, where acrobats would grab the horns of bulls and somersault over the heads of the animals, the Thessalian taurokathapsia involved a horse rider chasing down a bull, grabbing its horns to leap onto its back, then dismounting, and wrestling it into submission. It was a sport that required equal amounts of expert horsemanship, dexterity, and incredible physical strength.

On the obverse of our coin, we see the later, climactic stage of the action, where the rider has dismounted the bull, grabbed it by its horns, and is twisting its head to force it to the ground. On the reverse, we're shown the forepart of his bridled horse, presumably galloping away from the scene.

Different Thessalian cities issued coins during this period that showed different stages of the taurokathapsia, and taken as a series, much of what we know of this ancient sport is corroborated by what has been depicted on the coins. Remarkably, we also learn that the Thessalian taurokathapsia was almost identical to the modern day American rodeo sport of bulldogging. I think the picture below says it all, right down to the fact that the cowboy is wearing virtually the same hat as the hero Thessalos!



While it's cool that ancient coins allow us to acquaint ourselves with the myths, historic battles, and rulers of our distant past, I think it's at least equally cool when we have a coin that tells us something about what the average person who lived at the time had enjoyed, or found meaningful, and yet more amazing still when we learn that 2,500 years later, we share some of the exact same past-times and preoccupations.

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A Gentle Reminder
Round 1 went about as well as anyone could have hoped from the perspective of keeping the commentary fun, interesting and friendly. It would be a challenge to run a tournament of this type on almost any other board but with the great people here on CT it has been both an honor and a pleasure. Lets try to keep up with the perfect score in the friendliness department by concentrating comments on why you liked an entry instead of why you didn't like the other.

Remember that everyone gets 3 votes to choose which coin you think comes out on top in each of the three categories. With that I will open the thread for comments, opinions, coin pile-ons and random posting of coin things as you see fit.

 

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Now I want both....crazy game !

Q

 

Both great coins, but I can't go past a 2400 year old coin in such good condition and interesting detail and for only $64 what a bargain.

 

True, but there are some real bargains to be had with Greek silver. Once you get past the big tets, shinny rare drachms, etc., there are some fairly common silver coins to be had sub-$100. I think I have 4 such Greeks in my collection.

I gave dougsmit my support in 2 out of 3, but I think zumbly might have just edged this one out. The bull wrestler theme is just too cool.

 

What I love about this match up is that it features two of the most talented ancient coin photographers on CT. You couldn't ask for better information for the eye appeal category.

I love both Doug's Augustus and Z's ex BCD beauty. Doug got my interest vote, Z got my eye appeal and I have yet to cast my bargain

Great match!

 

Wow, those photos are absolutely stunning, Z, and the subject is too. In the writeup I think you did a masterful job of illustrating both the importance of everyday life, and how the coin helps us understand it.

Your entry is awesome too, Doug, and it goes without saying that your photos (including the closeup) couldn't be improved upon. I must confess I was hoping for a new coin, though. Or at least a new joke.

I must point out: Z's coin was $1 cheaper.

 

..just WOW!..i can see this contest being a "flip" of the coin..awesome match up of two cointalk giants and excellent coins!..both equally deserving...let the games begin..

 

Both great coins which I would love to have in my collection. Hmmmmm, how to vote.......

 

Tough one. Both are fantastic coins.

 

Well, @Curtisimo... it looks like the Round Three rule change wasn't necessary since the voters are not looking favorably upon the repeat.

Replay a coin at your own peril

It's a fantastic coin, Doug.

There aren't many people who can give Doug a run for his money in the coin photography department but Zumbly has produced some amazing images. Wow!! The surface reticulation looks absolutely lovely, almost like the pattern on laid paper.

Zumbly also knocked it out of the park in the writeup with his usual combination of beyond-Wikipedia facts, subtle humor, and impeccable grammar

 

2 real beauties here! Maybe the hardest decision for me so far. I believe this one comes down to what the voter believes to be the best bargain (at least that's what had me scrolling up n down and then up n down again). Larger vs smaller. Roman vs Greek. Bronze vs silver. Countermark vs quarter steak!

 

I don't have the Larissa so we could not have a straight up head to head here. Mine is from Trikka, a neighboring city, and came to my collection about 30 years before the contest cutoff date. Looking at your modern photo, I can't help thinking that the invention of blue jeans made bulldogging a bit more pleasant for the participants.

At least I won't have to pick a coin for the next round. I agree with the rule change requiring the new coin but it does change the game completely. It was a contest between coins but now becomes a contest between collections and efficient game strategy. Do you play your best eligible coin now or hold it for a later round? It does seem to disadvantage our newest members with few coins but it will allow us to see more different coins.

 

Great coins for both contestants. Tough decision!

 

I was fortunate enough to get a sneak peak of a coin Doug was considering playing but decided to let this one ride instead. That coin showcased a level of photography ability that I could not hope to replicate. Truly impressive.

Perhaps Doug will decide to post a thread on the coin and how he got such a good photo of it sometime if he has not done so already?

 

Actually, when I heard the rule change, I had to start looking for another coin in case I moved on and found another I felt better for contest use. Both have been posted before. Most of my coins have been posted before. In fact I would expect you should find over half of the contest coins from everyone in our year end 'Favorite Coin of 2017' threads. I have bought very few coins in 2018 due to missing my favorite coin shows. Maybe others have had a better year and have not been posting so you will see surprises???

 

While I have complete admiration for Doug's excellent coin as well as his choice of play...

YES YES YES!!
If nothing else, I'll at least have achieved my goal of fielding a suitable coin that was cheaper than Doug's.

I suspect the subtle numismatic joke is that countermarked coins received a second life, so to speak, and Doug here is paying tribute to that fact by circulating his a second time around in the game.

 

I think that remains to be seen!

I've always seen it more as a strategic contest between collections. I don't think I have a "best eligible" coin that will work across the board against all opponents; if I lose this round, there's no other or better coin I'll regret not fielding here. My basic strategy is to just try to use what knowledge I have of the collector I'm up against to field the coin that seems "right". That said, while I had some sense of what coins you could possibly use from your posts, I certainly didn't expect this one... very tricky play!

 

Coming from one of my two favorite coin photographers on the board (the other being Doug), I'm really flattered. Honestly, I often struggle with photographing my coins and am just glad that this one was cooperative!

LOL! Love that rundown, but vote for the beef!!

 

It's worth taking a browse through the BCD Thessaly catalogue (sessions 1 and 2 of Triton XV), now a standard reference. (But I would advise not looking at the prices realized so your eyes don't bleed.)
https://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=308&category=4651
(Search for hemidrachm if you just want to see some like Z's coin.)

Sample obverse and sample reverse (beautiful classical style, instead of Z's beautiful archaic style):


--realized $1800 and $1000 respectively.

(Not meaning to detract from your coin at all, Z. Quite the contrary, it's very cool that your coin comes from the same collection.)

 

Score update:
@dougsmit - 78
@zumbly - 93

Whichever way the score goes Z, your coin has given bulls everywhere the courage to show their horns again after @Cucumbor showed them no respect last year... Steve would be proud.