[Poll-13] #16 Justin Lee vs #17 dougsmit (Round 1) CIT 2018

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Curtisimo, Aug 1, 2018.

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Please vote on the coin you think wins in each of the following categories. 3 votes per voter

Poll closed Aug 4, 2018.
  1. Eye appeal (#16 Justin Lee)

    27 vote(s)
    48.2%
  2. Best bargain (#16 Justin Lee)

    30 vote(s)
    53.6%
  3. Historical or numismatic interest (#16 Justin Lee)

    7 vote(s)
    12.5%
  4. Eye appeal (#17 dougsmit)

    27 vote(s)
    48.2%
  5. Best bargain (#17 dougsmit)

    24 vote(s)
    42.9%
  6. Historical or numismatic interest (#17 dougsmit)

    48 vote(s)
    85.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    Welcome to Round 1 of CIT 2018! If you are unaware of the tournament I invite you to get caught up with all the fun on the following link:

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/an...annual-coin-imperator-tournament-2018.320328/

    Bracket-1.jpg

    I want to give a special thank you to the participants for volunteering to play the game. We have a great group of people here at CT.

    ...........................................................​

    #16 @Justin Lee

    Justin Lee.jpg
    Marcus Aurelius as Caesar, AE As, Struck 145 AD, Rome Mint
    Obverse: AVRELIVS CAES-AR AVG PII F COS II, Bare head of Marcus Aurelius to right with slight, youthful beard.
    Reverse: [No legend], Minerva standing right, holding spear and resting hand on shield, S-C in field.
    References: RIC III (Antoninus Pius) 1264, Cohen 573
    Size: 26.22mm, 11.47g
    Description: Deep black patina with hints of rich green peeking through in places.


    Price: $23

    Why It’s Cool:
    In January 145 AD, Marcus Aurelius was made consul for the second time, alongside emperor Antoninus Pius. This is denoted on the coin by COS II in the obverse legend. Having a Caesar reach a second consulship wasn’t out of the ordinary, but Marcus Aurelius was 23 years old, far younger than the minimum age requirement for a consul (some say 32yo and others 42yo).

    Marcus Aurelius’s first consulship was in 139 AD, when he was only 18, so he obviously exhibited certain extraordinary traits early in his life (a sort of emperor prodigy) that the emperor Hadrian, and later the emperor Antoninus Pius, took careful note of.

    This coin was struck in the same year that Marcus Aurelius married Faustina Junior, the daughter of emperor Antoninus Pius. This marriage, and his previous adoption by Antoninus, is represented on the coin with PII F in the obverse legend representing “Pius Filius”, meaning “son of Antoninus Pius”, further declaring his hierarchical place to the Roman people and drawing connotations between the piety and moral dignity of Antoninus Pius and himself.

    Young_Marcus_Aurelius.jpg
    A young Marcus Aurelius (Wikipedia)

    Marcus Aurelius was Caesar under Antoninus Pius during one of the most peaceful and stable periods of the Principate. He was scholarly and introspective by nature and it is hard not to contrast the youthful and relaxed portrait on this coin with the later portraits showing a stern statesman faced with what must have been, for him, the distasteful task of constant warfare to defend the empire.

    The date this coin was struck, 145 AD, would equate to 898 ab urbe condita (“from the founding of the City”). RIC mentions that the usage of divine types, such as Minerva appearing on this reverse, became more common as Rome approached its 900th anniversary. Minerva was a very central goddess for the Romans, and was part of the Capitoline Triad, alongside Jupiter and Juno. Minerva is the goddess of wisdom and strategic warfare. In contrast to Mars the Roman god of war, Minerva was a more thoughtful deity—Minerva appears often with her sword lowered showing sympathy for the recently dead rather than having it raised in boastful triumph.

    It is thought that Minerva was an evolution of the Etruscan goddess Menrva and a counterpart to the Greek goddess Athena (they both are often shown with an owl to represent their wisdom). Beyond wisdom, battle, and warfare, Minerva also represented medicine, crafts, commerce, poetry, and the arts. This timely depiction of Minerva on the reverse of this coin may represent a general reminiscing on the mystical past of Roman culture by the public. One can only speculate if there were any hidden meaning intended for the Roman people in the usage of Minerva on the reverse.

    ...........................................................​

    #17 @dougsmit

    Dougsmit-1.jpg
    Augustus AE as 26mm 10.85g 10-7 BC Lugdunum mint
    CAESAR PONT MAX l. hd. rt.
    ROM ET AVG altar
    Millennium Sear 1690, RIC 230, C 240
    Countermarked on reverse TIB C AVF in rectangular box with extension to accommodate the tall I


    Price: $65

    Why It’s Cool:
    Bargain: Purchased from Don Zauche's half price box at a coin show in 2017.

    On 1 August, 10 BC, the city of Lugdunum dedicated its new altar to Rome and Augustus. The dedication was set for the first day of the month honored by being renamed in honor of the Emperor. Bronze coins in a series of sizes were issued showing the altar. Of that series, the most common is the copper as. Much of what we know about the altar comes from well preserved coins, particularly the larger sestertii. You will see some variations in descriptions of the figures shown in different references. Most clear are the two Victories on tall columns flanking the altar. The coins stopped after about three years but were revived near the end of the reign with a different (longer) obverse legend and a parallel issue in the name of Tiberius Caesar.

    Our coin is special due to the countermark on the reverse. It reads TIB C AVF with the AVF ligate. This reads TIBerius Caesar Filius (son) of AVgustus. Most unusual is the way the I and B of TIB were formed into a ligature. Since the I would disappear completely into the straight stroke of the B, it was raised up but that ran into the top of the rectangular box which had to be bumped out a bit to accommodate the tall I. To me that is a cool extension on a cool countermark carefully aligned on a cool coin issued to commemorate a cool altar dedicated in a hot month. Well, we can't all be cool, can we?

    I have been told that this countermark is “Martini 32” but I really don't like quoting references I have not seen.
    http://www.romancoins.info/CMK-Lugdunum-Aug-Part2.html#MP32

    I have not seen other examples of this mark on these asses but there are several marks found on the series including some more simply TIB. Why was the mark applied? I do not know. What other coin types bore this mark? What did 'Martini' have to say about it? (Does anyone have this collection reference?). I consider this coin the coolest of my eligible entries (January 2017 to July 2018) even though many people consider countermarks a form of damage. Frequently countermarks are placed in such a way that they damage design on one side or the other of the coin. Many are applied to coins already well worn or otherwise compromised. This coin is above average in these respects. All things considered, the coolest thing about this coin is that it found a collection (mine) where it is appreciated.

    In researching this write-up, I found a note stating that the altar remained in place until Septimius Severus remodeled the temple complex after defeating Clodius Albinus but details and what happened later are not known. Since I collect Septimius, how cool is that?

    ...........................................................​

    A Gentle Reminder
    We have had a remarkably fun and friendly tournament so far and I want to thank all of our members who have contributed and commented :) Let's continue to do a good job of keeping our tournament friendly! Instead of focusing comments too much on why you didn't vote for one coin over the other try to focus on why you did vote for the one you chose!

    Remember that everyone gets 3 votes to choose which coin you think comes out on top in each of the three categories. With that I will open the floor to comments, pile-ons and shameless lobbying.

    FYI: I am trying out whether or not it will harm participation to make the polls viewable to anyone, even those who haven't voted. Please provide feedback on this if you have any.
     
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  3. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Well-Known Member

    Two interesting coins, once more. This tournament is great for showing coins from us various collectors with their in depth knowledge : great adventure


    For me, viewing the poll results means I've already voted. otherwise, I would Wonder. Just my two denari but I would let it as it's now

    Q
     
  4. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus

    I would be worried about the bandwagon effect. If posters see a certain trend before they vote it might be tempting for some to "go with the crowd". I think it is better that each person has to seriously consider their vote before they do. Of course people could just vote for anyone and then change their vote afterwards.
     
    Jwt708, zumbly, Oldhoopster and 6 others like this.
  5. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Sestertius of Marcus Aurelius commemorating the victory over the German peoples.

    C5E44F6E-5E67-4B44-B687-6894E1AABE22.jpeg CFF11468-DD65-4BE8-8EC4-9985415A1414.jpeg

    My Augustus As of Lugdunum

    A71C5960-8F4E-4258-B5D8-C60AF39A6DED.jpeg 278F7D7C-4027-4C9E-8397-508E4B9A43A1.jpeg

    Lugdunum

    0291683A-94DF-465D-A770-671B433B5C4C.jpeg

    Possible fragments of the altar of Lugdunum

    DBD23EBC-4665-48E1-BC5E-C779EA7A147E.jpeg

    An inscription detailing Tiberius’ dedication of the Lugdunum amphitheater.

    4249D924-559D-4CCD-869F-87D75C2D857F.jpeg
     
  6. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs Well-Known Member

    Justin Lee - Great portrait on the Aurelius - and great historical write up and excellent price... hits all of the marks - well done!

    Dougsmit's coin: hard to describe my feelings when I look at that coin... best I can come up with is the "mood" of the coin is just incredible... everything from the portrait, the wear, the legends, countermark and what it symbolizes is breathtaking.
     
    Justin Lee and Curtisimo like this.
  7. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    Both really interesting and appealing coins and both a bargain. Very tough choice.
     
    Justin Lee and Curtisimo like this.
  8. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus

    I love the portrait on the M Aurelius and that counter-marked coin of Augustus is really interesting.
     
  9. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    :hilarious::hilarious::hilarious:
     
    Justin Lee, Curtisimo and TIF like this.
  10. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing

    Great coin, @dougsmit!! As a designer, your description and breakdown of the CM is so fascinating! Well played!!
     
    Curtisimo likes this.
  11. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Thanks, I like yours, too. This 'contest' forced me to do the search which turned up the other example of that c/m of which I was previously unaware. It is a good day when you learn something. I wish I could convince myself of the ID of that host coin. Is that mark placed carefully above the altar? Maybe this exposure will bring to light another specimen.
    "TIBCAVF" in square possibly on a Lugdunum As, meaning thought to be "Tiberius Caesar Augustus Filius", (countermark Martini Pangerl Collection 32)
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  12. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    For me, Justin scores with a solid, good-looking coin for a great price. Doug, in his inimitable way, schools everyone with a too cool for school coin (which just happens to be a bargain in its own right). Fun match with some tough voting choices!
     
    Curtisimo, Justin Lee and TIF like this.
  13. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    Both had very good write ups, making my choice even harder. I really liked how the countermark on Doug's coin didn't obliterate details on the obverse. Good job guys!

    @Curtisimo I like not knowing how many votes or who has voted better. Less likely to sway my decision if I go in blind and keeps me away from groupthink.
     
    Curtisimo and Justin Lee like this.
  14. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Both Justin and Doug have coins with much historical interest. You guys are making voting really hard, its so close! I think it will be a split decision:shame:
     
    Justin Lee and Curtisimo like this.
  15. Ancient Aussie

    Ancient Aussie Well-Known Member

    Two great coins making for another hard decision, although I gave eye appeal to Justin there was not much in it as the patina and detail is pretty good on Doug's and only $65, I wished I lived closer I would follow some of you guy's around at these coin shows. :rolleyes:
     
    Justin Lee and Curtisimo like this.
  16. Ancient Aussie

    Ancient Aussie Well-Known Member

    Curtisimo and TypeCoin971793 like this.
  17. Ancient Aussie

    Ancient Aussie Well-Known Member

    The Altar of Lugdunum one of my favorite types of Augustus, although I don't have any of the early As like Doug's I do have one towards the end of his reign and a Semis. 9-14 AD Augustus Lugdunum Lyon.jpg Augustus semis.jpg
     
  18. eparch

    eparch Well-Known Member

    Curtisimo likes this.
  19. Andres2

    Andres2 Well-Known Member

    Voted for Doug's cm altar of Lugdunum, I see it as a handover from Augustus to Tiberius.

    constructed under Nero Claudius Drusus:

    P1180259 daylight.jpg
    P1180259lyon.jpg first owner:

    Augustus S-C Pont Max2.jpg

    second owner:

    P1140136best.jpg
     
  20. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Curtisimo likes this.
  21. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    So I meant to bump this thread this morning but I ended up sleeping in really late and it was glorious! :woot: My apologies to anyone who missed out on voting.

    Results
    #16 @Justin Lee - 64
    #17 @dougsmit - 99 Winner


    Justin gets the edge in a battle of good bargains and both coins tie for eye appeal. Doug wins based on the strength of his coin's historic AND numismatic interest. Thanks to both participants. Fun match!

    @dougsmit advances to round 2 to take on @zumbly ! I, for one, am looking forward to that match up :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
    Johndakerftw and Justin Lee like this.
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