My second rare flavian

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Spargrodan, Jan 31, 2020.

  1. Spargrodan

    Spargrodan Well-Known Member

    My second rare flavian came on the mail today. It's in a way better condition compared to my first flavian coin that came earlier this week. I'm really happy that I found this one. https://www.cointalk.com/threads/first-flavian-to-start-the-collection.354195/#post-4037013

    IMG_20200131_2353002.jpg IMG_20200131_235358_12.jpg

    Domitian, Denarius
    Rome mint, 83 AD, March - 13 September
    Obv. IMP CAES DOMITIANVS AVG P M
    Rev. TR POT II COS VIIII DES X P P
    Minerva stg. R. on capital of rostral column, with spear and shield; to r., owl
    RIC II, Part 1 (second edition) 164 (R2)
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
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  3. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs Supporter! Supporter

    Excellent choice.. wonderful coin all around..
     
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  4. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Nice coin. Here is my Domitian/owl example:
    Domitian 8.jpg
    DOMITIAN
    AR Denarius
    OBVERSE: IMP CAES DOMIT AVG - GERM P M TR P VIII Head laureate right
    REVERSE: IMP XVII COS XIIII CENS P P P Minerva fighting right with spear and shield atop capital of rostral column, owl at her feet
    Struck at Rome, 88-89 AD
    3.55g, 18.44mm
    RIC 657 (R )

    And one without the owl:
    Domitian 3.jpg
    DOMITIAN
    AR Denarius
    OBVERSE: IMP CAES DOMIT AVG GERM P M TR P VIII, laureate head right
    REVERSE: IMP XIX COS XIIII CENS P P P, Minerva standing left holding spear
    Struck at Rome, 88-89 AD
    3.3g, 19mm
    RIC 670
     
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  5. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic Supporter

    Excellent! This rare issue from 83 is the first to introduce the 4 standard Minerva types. So, it's quite an important one for Domitian.

    Your example of the M2 type is much better than mine.

    D164.JPG Domitian
    AR Denarius, 3.35g
    Rome mint, 83 AD
    Obv: IMP CAES DOMITIANVS AVG P M; Head of Domitian, laureate, bearded, r.
    Rev: TR POT II COS VIIII DES X P P; Minerva stg. r. on capital of rostral column, with spear and shield; to r., owl (M2)
    RIC 164 (R2). BMC 41. RSC 606. BNC 39.
    Ex Harry N. Sneh Collection.
     
  6. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 Well-Known Member

    And I just picked up a RIC 164 at auction...

    DomitianRIC164.jpg

    Not nearly as nice as both your examples. In fact, it may be an ancient counterfeit, seeing as it's very thin and comes in at a light 2.55g.
     
  7. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus Supporter

    Nicely done @Spargrodan

    That is a rare one!

    Here is mine

    Domitian (81 - 96 AD). (undated 82-83 CE)
    Denarius. 83 AD Rome.
    (20 mm 3.47 g)
    Obv: IMP CAES DOMITIANVS AVG P M. Head with laurel wreath on the right.
    Rev: TR POT II COS VIIII DES X P P
    Minerva with lance and shield on capital standing to the right, in front of it an owl.
    RIC 164 (R2); C.606; BMC 41 RSC 606
    Ex: Silbury Coins January 28 2018

    Domitian ric 164.jpg
     
  8. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 Well-Known Member

    Must not be so rare ;). Nice one Andrew.

    The great thing about Domitian's coins is that they're usually well struck and relatively easy to find rarities.
     
  9. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic Supporter

    RSC uses Cohen's numbering system. If you are going to collect only silver Cohen is superfluous. Which is why in the past I never got a copy of Cohen. But now that I collect bronze as well, perhaps I need to invest in one?

    Now, if you own a copy of Cohen and wish to use it, well that's another matter!
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
  10. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus Supporter

    I want a copy of Cohen as I think it would be interesting.As you know RSC added a number of examples not in Cohen. I think it would be very interesting to compare types across these catalogues to get an idea of what types emerged between the publication of Cohen and RSC. Actually I have been working on a similar project already. I
    Have been cross referencing BMC and RIC II part one for Denarii if Domitian. I have not identified any recognizable pattern but it is interesting.
     
  11. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus Supporter

    Unless you are looking for one rarity in particular. There are several rarities of Domitian I have been searching for that have not appeared at all in the last few years.
     
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  12. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 Well-Known Member

    When you're looking you don't find them. Most of my rarities I just happened upon. I know you and David do the same as me, we never take a dealer or tags word for it.

    Always check for yourself. That's the best piece of advice I think we should all follow, but I'm happy when people don't! :)
     
  13. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic Supporter

    Never copy and paste attributions or accept them on face value. For instance, the Domitian As I posted earlier was attributed as BMC 884 - it is actually unlisted in the BM! What this well respected dealer was citing actually is a left facing portrait of the type, not the right facing.

    Personally, I never cite references I do not have sitting on my shelves. There are a few I don't use because they either are not well known (Carradice for Domitian, Butcher for Syria) or too broad (Sear, Van Meter).

    Such a daunting task! As you already know, the two catalogues are arranged quite differently - RIC strictly chronologically, BMC chronologically by metal. My collection is arranged according to RIC, but I'm not happy about it. A quinarius sitting next to a sestertius seems odd to me.
     
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  14. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic Supporter

    Most types missing in my Forvm gallery are quite scarce and not offered on a regular basis. At times, being a specialist requires the patience of Job
     
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  15. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus Supporter

    I find the choices the cataloguers make interesting. There are many decisions to make if you are going to catalogue coins. For example when I was comparing the denarii of Vespasian between RIC II part 1 and the latest RSC, I discovered that RIC 980 actually gets 2 entries in RSC. RIC merely states that some dies have poppies. RSC makes this 2 types, one with poppies (RSC 219) and one without (RSC 215).

    The main reason I have chosen to use RIC to organize my collection is that it is the most up to date catalogue.
     
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  16. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus Supporter

    Some of the types that are in your forum gallery are extremely rare. I cannot count the number of times I have been looking for a rare Domitian denarius types and found it in your gallery. The posting of these galleries on Forum is an amazing resource for anyone doing scholarly research on these coins.
     
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  17. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic Supporter

    Also, the BMC notes BNC 191 with poppies, but I digress ...
     
    Orfew likes this.
  18. Suarez

    Suarez Well-Known Member

    Sez who! :-D
     
  19. rrdenarius

    rrdenarius non omnibus dormio Supporter

    I agree, up to a point. I use reference books I can hold (or have in PDF when out of copyright) for my Roman Republican and Italian cast bronze collections.
    upload_2020-1-31_23-25-48.png upload_2020-1-31_23-26-19.png Cr 47/2
    Post Semi Libral Semis TV71 NAC 5.21.15.jpg
    TV-71

    I have not found a comprehensive book / reference for Roman(ish) scale weights.
    DSCN1862.JPG
    I have a reasonable reference for one of the above.
     

    Attached Files:

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  20. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus Supporter

    No offence intended. RIC is simply the one I use most often. It has some great information on how the reigns of these emperors are connected to the coins. I really enjoy reading this information about the circumstances involved in the striking of these coins and the historical connections.

    I do own a copy of Aorta and have found it interesting as well. I also have the e-file of The Complete Coinage of Domitian. I have been meaning to cross-reference my Domitian collection with this reference. I suspect I may have a few types not in The Complete Coinage of Domitian.
     
  21. Parthicus Maximus

    Parthicus Maximus Well-Known Member

    That is a very nice example @Spargrodan! The portrait is beautiful, I love the early style of it.
     
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