Minnesota to require Background Check for anyone buying/selling bullion

Not sure if this is a good idea... does it cover private citizens???

http://consumerist.com/2013/07/29/m...ground-checks-will-deter-scammy-coin-dealers/

 

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I know a certain bunch will scream "invasion of privacy!" but for me, it makes good sense.

My neighbor was robbed of over 1,000 ounces of silver (10 100 oz bars). If the would be thief had to be submitted to a background check, he probably would not have committed the crime to begin with.

I'm for it.

 

Its the most worthless law in the history of bad law regarding our hobby.

First, it details you must put in writing how much precious metal is in a coin. Tell me Tim, how is an ancient coin dealer going to do that?

Second, the law is written "buy or sell $1000 worth" of ANY coins with ANY pm content. My coin club is not sure, and neither is the state, (from our correspondence with them), if this covers collectors or not. The law as written sure sounds like it.

Its a bill that will kill coin collecting in this state. I truly feel sorry for most dealers here. Many are already planning on retirement. Its another case of a well meaning bill completely out of bounds. The funny thing is how this bill started. I guess some Twins players got scammed over the phone on some "precious coins", and raised enough of a stink to get this bill proposed. Poor rich millionaires.

 

Well then....that's their own stupidity quite frankly.

The law outlines several things:

1. If you have committed a financial crime within the past 10 years, your not allowed to be a dealer.

That's totally understandable. After all, would you want to deal with an ex-con? I sure wouldn't either.

2. Dealers may not misrepresent the value,characteristics, or or earning potentials of a transaction.

Again, understandable. Some crooked dealer may tell your Grandma that here coins aren't silver, and buy them for pennies on the dollar. Or they might lie and say, "this is all I can give you, I'm only making 5% on this deal".

You got that right. Remember the shady "fly-by-night" dealers that came around last year and the few years before?

Take a look around you, besides unscrupulous dealers, we have chinese fakes by the thousands...

..the hobby of coin collecting is being ruined by this type of stuff. We need regulation in this hobby to prevent this kind of stuff from occurring.

This law will in by no means harm collecting, it will actually make it safer.

 

Did you read my concern Tim? COLLECTORS may be subject to the law, and required to post a cash bond and obtain a license from the state.

I am all for shutting down coin sweat shops, but this law:

1. Makes it nearly impossible to comply with for ancient and medieval coins
2. Possibly subjects collectors to licensing and bonding requirements.

Which part of these two aspects of the law makes coin collecting "safer"? I live here man, and we have been fighting this bill for a year now, but the legislature was completely uninterested in our opinions.

A good compromise would be to make anyone soliciting over the phone or via advertising to have to comply with such laws, but anyone who only sells from a store or coin show exempt. This would by definition exempt all collectors, and also exempt dealers who set up at coin shows and have a b&m store. The danger is not traditional coin dealers and shows, but rather telemarketers cold callling little old ladies. Like I said, the INTENT of the law was fine, but its implementation is horrid.

 

sitting on the fence for now.

 

I'm not seeing where it applies to collectors, only dealers.

 

Medoraman, I certainly agree with the concern that there seems to be insufficient hard language exactly defining whether a collector selling coins as part of the hobby is considered a "bullion dealer".

But, it looks to me like "normal" folks may be off the hook here:

(b) A bullion coin dealer does not include any of the following persons:
(2) a person who engages only in transactions at occasional garage or yard sales
held at the seller's residence, farm auctions held at the seller's residence, or estate sales
held at the decedent's residence;
(5) a person who engages only in transactions at occasional trade shows where the
consumer is present and the transaction is made at the trade show; or

To me - and I'm certainly NOT a lawyer - the above reads favorable to collectors, at least in some areas like coin shows. Although it's specific about some instances where you can sell items and not be considered a dealer, it's a little too specific. I'm willing to go as far as saying I'd be hard pressed to believe they'd include sales and purchases in a "hobbyist" setting - online, at a coffee shop, craigslist, etc. However I'd rather not be the guinea pig on finding that out, especially with it not really defined well in black and white. Things left open for interpretation usually favor those on the law enforcing end, not on the receiving end.

Is it a little more grey for someone who is not a real business but operates an eBay "storefront"? Yeah, I'd be a little worried without more clarification on that also.

Well intentioned law? Yeah, I'd go that far. But I'd also say it's far from being very clear for a lot of scenarios and is dangerous as worded (or moreso not).

 

The legislation, as written, is absolutely awful.

 

PM, that was my club's point. Clarify that, and remove "exact pm amount" requirement for those coins its impossible to know, and I feel better about it. As it is written, we specifically asked these pointex questions to the state, and they point blank refused to tell us collectors were not required to get a license and post a bond. That is my club's concern. The intent is fine, but if they would have asked us, and used my suggestion, the actual law would have been good and helpful.

 

Just a precursor to confiscation in my opine.

 

I live in Minnesota and i think the new law wont ruin the hobby in our state, i think it will be fine

 

To me it sounds like another wonderful law that makes it more difficult for the average law abiding citizen, and changes nothing for the criminal who doesn't follow the laws anyway. A sensible law written by sensible people would make more sense; however enforcing the existing laws would probably still do the most good.

 

this is the same as proposed stricter gun laws. why make good citizens jump through hoops when criminals bypass things anyway?? I HAVE BEEN BURGLARIZED IN THE PAST 2 YEARS. I would not feel any better nor would i think there is a better chance they will catch the putz who did it if there was some sort of registry. he is just gonna sell it to his homeboy anyway

the government doesn't need to know what i purchase, when i purchase, how much i purchase - PERIOD. if you are ok with this, you disagree with the constitution and are un-American in my eyes. JMHO

 

I agree with background checks for those selling. It would be a hassle but would be better. I'm a criminal investigator and I believe that this would be good not only for precious metals but also for anyone trying to sell or pawn anything at a pawn shop.

It would deter alot of nonsense. These pawnshops and LCS's are shady as heck.

The pawn shops and LCS's are as much to blame as the thieves. These background checks would hold the pawn shop accountable. You can't tell me that someone who is a poster boy drug addict who comes in to sell a handful of jewelry or PM's shouldn't draw a red flag!? Of course it should but these pawn shops and LCS's buy from them anyways even though they know better.

No need to worry this is never going to happen. There will never be background checks in places like these. Money won't be made.

 

I can only speak for Florida but here's how it works...

I steal a 10oz Englehard gold bar (with serial number). I then take the gold bar to a pawn shop. The pawn shop has to take my photo ID and thumb print and has to hold the gold bar for 15 days.

If the police find the gold bar because the owner had a serial number, they can place the gold on hold. However, the victim has to give the pawn shop the amount of money that the pawn shop gave the thief in order to get the gold back because the pawn shop is technically as much of a victim as the original victim. So therefore, the pawn shop has nothing to lose but everything to gain. If the 15 days passes, they sell or melt the gold. If they bought he gold bar for $100 they make tons of profit.

 

Just got an email from CNG that they are now refusing to sell to anyone with an address in Minnesota due to this law.

Now I am on the warpath.

 

Btw, I am hearing other dealers are now refusing MN shipments as well. If you are a MN collector and am not screaming at your state rep, state senator, governor, AG office, etc then shame on you. You ARE being affected starting tomorrow.

 

Well Chris, Even though I am not from MN, I sent Amy K. an e-mail anyway. Definitely concerned about this spreading. Not sure how much weight they give out of state e-mails, but it couldn't hurt. This is just a good idea that went VERY, VERY, wrong

 

So, how is that working out for you? Are you safer with 85% of the dealers not doing business - even face to face outside of Minnesota with Minnesotans?