Is There Any Point In Investing In Numismatics...

:high5 Nope, She died from old age, 7 yrs ago....I am glad I sold her short term investments. )

I think everyone should have “SOME but not ALL” wealth in Silver and Gold and Numismatics.

In 1987 I bought several Silver bars @$7.00 Per oz. I was 21 years old and I was told it was the way to go. I was just learning about investing and as a young man just starting life.

By 1992 Silver fell and was priced around $3.70 to $4.00. I thought it was a great potential BUY, but I still had the silver bars I lost money on and as a joke I tossed one bar of silver by my office door as a door stop. I showed it to my brokerage clients as an example of BUY and HOLD. (SIX YEARS of no return BY 1992)

By 1997 Silver was still under $6.00. ZZZEEEERO RETURN over 10 years!
Very Sad.... The Rule of 72 would have said that a 7% bond or FDIC ins. CD, (7% was easy to get in 1987 to 1994) would have doubled my money in 10 years…

I took my Silver bars and sold them at a loss and ended up with @ 7k. I took the 7k and bought a small $140,000 house in 1998 in Southern California. By 2003 I sold the house for $425,000. It was a crappy 1900 sq foot house and I never imagined it could do that!

I am so glad that the silver did not do a dang thing for 10 years because I have those ten one hundred oz bar door stops to thank for my wealth.

I spent some of those house proceeds on my first Pan Pac. I sold it for a profit a year ago! I recently bought a great house using the 84k I received from my Pan Pac and thanks to that first poor investment in Silver back in 1987, I should make out on real-estate again!

FYI... NOT ONE CLIENT WAS really ecstatic WITH THEIR GOLD/SILVER Bullion or Stocks or futures investments during the 20 years I tried to believe in the concept. I personally stayed true to it as a collector but no one really wanted to continue with it in the dot-com boom.

The years between 1987-2007 were not good for Silver.

I have been buying coins for those 20 years but never in Bulk or with money I felt was my core nest egg. What about those poor saps that put in massive amounts of money in silver last year @19 to 20 dollars per?

As I said before, you must educate yourself and know what your goals are. Right now, paying a 40% premium for Silver American Eagles may be a dumb idea. But I keep a few around just incase you want to give me the benefit of the 40% bonus!

SLV, GLD, Coins, Oil, Real-estate, and any other investment is good as long as you know why you want it.

You buy a drill to help make the hole. You buy investments to accumulate wealth. You buy numismatics for wealth accumulation, historic preservation, and a few other reasons.

Just know what your goal is. Does your risk tolerance include an understanding of the Time, Liquidity, Marketability, Diversification, and Tax consequences of the investment?

 

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Sort of like the US stock market over the past 10 years. And the market in Japan is down about 75% after 29 years. No investment is inherently good or bad, including metals. If you pay too much, it will be a disappointment.

 

Keep buying

Keep buying all the time. You can only buy when you have money. Buying all the time gives you a long term cost averaging.
We have had a couple of three major crashes in the last two decades. Savings and loan, technology 1987 , real estate, and stocks. There are some other items like oil problems. Right now today America can not handle another bubble ! I think gold and silver should hold for a couple of years. Maybe with silver being a haven for those who can not afford gold.I own gold and love old coins but do not buy them because of fakes running in the 30-40% range. What I have came from my grandfather. He aquired them while do bridge engineering and design in Alaska 1915-1927 .
I trust what comes from the mint and try to buy when times are not great or special appeal for certain pieces or sets look good. Every year something from somewhere.
I sold stocks in 2007 down to about 10% of previous amounts. I might buy again but not now.
Realestate might have hit a bottom but that I would not bet on. I never look for and absolute bottom or top in anything. No one can slice the salami that thin !
It costs money to learn how to play poker.

 

Especially for gold I prefer buying direct from the mint. I stay away from "antique" numismatics because of the problem with so many fakes. Same
for Pandas. If I were to buy the really old coins or pandas on the secondary market (i.e., not from the mint) I would tend to favor slabbed coins which have at least been certified as being genuine.

 

Something to consider. Chart taken from Lear Capital home site. A little outdated but interesting, none the less. Would like to see the same chart, updated to current year.
http://www.learcapital.com/graphics/tracked/goldvscoinsnu.jpg

 

I think that chart on investing in rare coins is a little misleading. What coins were invested in to get those returns? Buying the wrong coins at the wrong price could take years or maybe even decades to break even.

Also, picking a handful of coins that have done very well over the past 30 years is easy to build a nice chart with. However, picking a handful of coins for the next 30 years is anybody's guess. How would anybody would have know to pick those coins 30 years ago?

 

Well I spent the last 20 minutes reading all your posts, so I believe mine is somewhat original, that is ass-u-ming I didn't skip someones post.......


But I have been "Investing" in coins for the last year or so with the intent to make a profit on them. Before that I collected coins purely for joy, it wasn't until I noticed that a few of them doubled in value that I decided to see what I could make in actual profit. With that said I am writing about all this to talk about bubbles. The best time as I see it to sell is when the bubble hits. Each coin seems to have it's own little bubble, the 2008 proof definitely seems to be in a bubble right now, and as such I would say sell. The Braille(Don't sell), I think between online articles, forums like this one, and coin pricing magazines, and ebay pricing, you can to some degree decide when it is good to sell a coin. Now I don't buy old coins any more, and that so far has done me well. So really even if you like to collect in old, new, or both, the main idea I want you to think about is when to sell. You wanna wait 50 years to sell your coin, fine, but along the way I would say buy, selling, buying, selling and so on for the next 50 years is a better way to go. When I write this I mostly picture the 401k, for an even mildy experience individual who could sell now and buy back later would have done so years ago..

Okay my crazy writings is done.

 

It looks like the chart they used for the rare coin appreciation is similar to the PCGS Mint State Type Coin Index (1970 to date)

http://www.pcgs.com/images/graphs/mstypeallgraph.gif

http://www.pcgs.com/prices/frame.chtml?type=coinindex&filename=mstype

You can see in Jan 1970 it was at 1000

In 5/04/06 it was at 76738.62

Some of the other indexes have done even better than that one.

 

Ok, I read all the posts in this thread. My silver is mostly "junk" 90% coins. I've found I could buy some better coins for just a little more than the junk value. If I wanted to collect coins, I have over 1000 mercury dimes I could sort out. A complete set of franklin half dollars can be had for less than 7$ a coin, while the melt value is about 11 times face. So you can pay about a 10% premium over bullion value and have something nicer than bullion.

I had thought about getting some better coins, but I wouldn't know if it was made in China. They can make perfect key date coins, which makes all key date coins worth the bullion content. I'm sure there are some here who disagree with me, and I'd like to hear what they have to say on the subject.

 

Speaking of that chart....if I'd have bought Walmart and Berkshire-Hathaway back then I think I'd have beat the rare coins.

 

If ?

If I would have bought Microsoft,Cisco and a host of others and sold them in hind sight I to would be rich beyond belief.
The average guy does not spend time wanting to work 24/7, and does not have the cash back up to take hits of any size. If the big guy hits 65% with a lot of trading he has done OK. That is why when my grandfather died he had a bunch of cash and gold coins in a photo album.
He had been through a depression, he came from Ireland with a degree in mechanical engineering and architecture.
He lived in Alaska from 1913-1930 + . He trusted no bank or nothing he did not understand.

 

I think the gap between bullion and coin "investing" is getting pretty wide...modern coins just don't have the precious metal content anymore. I think anyone can appriciate that variety is the spice of life, however a coin collection becomes much more sentimental than a solid oz. for oz. bullion investment. The line is blurred. If you only cared about the metal value you'd buy it in big bricks that would weigh too much for a thief to physically lift! But bullion isn't like that. You see Canada making special designs with limited editions, and the prices on those far exceed any spot price...those are collectables. Very expensive ones. Who is to say any modern coin will retain it's value let alone appriciate? I like statehood quarters but there are alot of them out there. I've bought some of the silver ones, but then you have the 99 set which puts a complete set at a stiff premium over spot. You can buy "junk" .90 us silver and put a set together but unless you want to pay more for keys it wouldn't be complete...I guess that would make Franklins an ideal balance between owning silver and getting to complete a set. My problem with junk coins is that's what they look like. For an investor with collector tendancies I think you're better off with a solid collection of bullion and occasionally treating yourself to a a nice "eye candy" coin. If you're already loaded then go for the limited edition, .9999 pure silver/gold bi-metallic with the authentic dinosaur tooth embedded in the obverse. That will impress the grandchildren at least! Whatever the case, go with what fills your need and fits your personality, because you probably want to hang on to it for awhile.

 

The chart represents the CU3000, Coin Universe Index, an indicator of the investment rare coin market. Somewhat like, the DOW JONES, NASDAQ, or S&P 500 are indicators of the overall market performance of stocks and mutual funds.

 

Those are some great stocks. No doubt about it. How about the market value of the most valuable coins though?

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Change[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Position[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Issue[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]MS/PF 63 Value[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Three Month Gain[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]One Year Gain[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Three Year Gain[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]1[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Silver Dollars, Draped Bust 1804 Proof Original[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]$10,100,000[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-3.8%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]10.6%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]42.5%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]new[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]2[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Double Eagles ($20.00 Gold Pieces), Saint-Gaudens 1933[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]$8,510,000[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-1[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]3[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Nickel Five-Cent Pieces, Liberty Head 1913 Proof[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]$5,920,000[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-3.7%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-7.6%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-17.1%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]new[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]4[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Eagles ($10.00 Gold Pieces), Capped Bust 1804 Proof, plain 4[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]$5,120,000[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-2[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]5[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Double Eagles ($20.00 Gold Pieces), Coronet 1861 Paquet reverse[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]$4,410,000[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-4.1%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-12.8%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]6[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Silver Dollars, Flowing Hair 1794[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]$3,180,000[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]9.3%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]26.7%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]285.5%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]3[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]7[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Half-Cent Pieces, Liberty Cap 1797 Gripped edge[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]$3,030,000[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]42.3%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]48.5%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]156.8%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-1[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]8[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Dimes, Liberty Seated 1873CC No arrows[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]$2,740,000[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-3.2%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]5.4%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]31.1%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-4[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]9[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Three Dollar Gold Pieces 1870S[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]$2,660,000[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-11.0%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-8.9%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-17.1%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-6[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]10[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Half Eagles ($5.00 Gold Pieces), Capped Head to Left 1822[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]$2,530,000[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-17.0%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]-10.0%[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]1.2%[/FONT]

 

What you point out is quite true indeed but in order for me to have purchased these coins and realized the profit you are showing, I'd still have had to lay out quite a bit of "jing". If I'd bought those two stocks that I mentioned (way back when) the cost of purchasing them would be considerably less and the returns rather significant. Sometimes you got to be in the right place at the right time......and having a crystal ball helps too.

 

I agree, and it makes it difficult for me to appreciate modern coins. Silver, gold and copper are/were an important part of our monetary history. Interestingly, all three elements appear in the same column of the periodic table. People gravitated to these metals for monetary purposes before the periodic table even existed. The modern day slug just can't compete with that.

 

Yet there are some interesting clad coins out there (some 1983 coinage for instance). If you search the posts of Cladking he can give you a greater appreciation for the rarity and importance of some clad coins.

 

I'm aware of the rarity of some of the coins, particularly in high grades, but I can't get excited over them.

 

Interesting article......

http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=6667

 

I like this guy!! Well said. I would add nothing. I agree with every word you said.