History repeating itself, we've learned nothing

We will be a Chinese colony by 2050.

 

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That begs the question, i.e. what causes poverty?

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I suspect that most of the posts were made by people who did not read the 6 page article I referenced.

 

2 books all of you should read before having this conversation

--- The Republic-
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.html
Also read Meditations by Marcus Arilius the first philospher king.



Second Book
http://books.google.com/books?id=_H...resnum=4&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false


The old days of imperial rule are dead. The world is controled threw the flow of capital and the multinational institutions that control it, and before anyone starts to hate. Yes Hardt and Negri are Post Marxist and Negri helped bomb a train station and people died making him a "terroist", But The united states uses cluster bombs and land mines so...


Also it is really dumb to say "Rome" died. The eastern emprie survied for almost another 1000 years. While the city proper was saked not all of its citizens where killed Read Saint Agustus account of the city being saked and the Christians being spared because the Visigoths where christans themselfs. the empire evovled but it did not die.


Also The CATO institute sux. Libertainism is retardo while im all for suply side economics we need a governemnt

 

There is a separate political forum for this sort of stuff. The post is not appropriate here.

 

I'm searching for an image to describe what i'm feeling right now...

 

I read the introduction, and started the first book of Plato's Republic. It would take some time to give it the attention it deserves. I didn't read Arilius. I clicked the link to the book by the commies, but you can't read any of the book there (Amazon), but I did read a good review of it. Commies have nothing to contribute. I don't agree that it's "dumb" to say Rome died, it at least fell, there was a major event. Then to write off the article with "the CATO institute sux" doesn't really address the events cited in the article and how they apply to today. "Libertainism is retardo"??? I have to assume you mean libertarianism, and you're a commie. That's not a personal attack, its just a point of view I don't share.

Perhaps you could provide a 1 paragraph summary of the books you cited and how you think its relevant. More attention to spelling and grammar would give more credence to your posting.

 

The Conqueror became SLAVE of his Conquests...

 

Mr. Joe,

Your very correct that I should of been more clear in my criticism. We should call it the "Western Empire" that way we can be more correct. Its funy the "Barbarians" had little to know imperial asperations so as Rome was sacked, but a lot remained the same. For The most part the church took its place as the dominant figure. I do think the cato institue sux and Libertarians in genral, because they ignore that the governemnt is nessecary to attempt to check for evil in the world, and attempt to solve market ineficiances. A perfect example is the FDA. Before the FDA people where being sold dangerous products. Meat factores where rancid places. Morphine and other drugs where sold unregulated and many other problems. Ocea and the Labor department, while true having problems now, are another example. We no longer have childern working in coal mines to save $ for the owners, because of labor laws. This is also the paradox of post-madernity, but I live by choice in a right to work state and will bash unions with the best of them. One does not have to be pro-union to be pro regulation of the labor market.

Another example would be the SEC, true they do a real poor job currently, but you don't want people selling crap to old peole just to steel their money... I hope my perspective is clear


O.K. About me being a commie: This is patenly untrue. I agree with Hart and Negri that Captialism destorys forms of life it finds un-productive and utltimatly causes many problems in the world. I also agree that they are correct when they state that the old "impierial Modle" of control in the world is dead and that what has replaced it is "Empire" a decentralized force that is seen in Globalized power structures. On the other hand I think they are wrong about globalzation being net worse than there "alternative". That does not meen though that they are wrong about the nature of the satues quoe. Michale Fouclaut wrote a great pice about the way that "The Prolatarete" ultimaly redepolies the same forms of diciplinary power and opression that they strive to overcome. Its in a Book Called Power / Knowledge

In plain english. Capitalism structures society the way it is. Our socity is perpetuates itself by instilling, threw disipliary institutions, (schools, The Family, hospitals, mental institutions, the military, Religion, Civil Society) all produce a standerd "life" that seems correct, but utlimatly prevent people from embracing life qua life or life for life sake. An Example a wall street banker that makes hundreds of millions of dollars is no better than a homless musician that just sits and creates butey in the world, but in our society the homless musical drunk is a "faliure" that has to be regulated, while Doctors, Lawyers, and Busniess executives are exahlted as the ultimate sucess sotries.

Another Important idea is Micro-Facism: Micro Facism is the facism of the self. We belive so deply in our socity and our way of doing things that we ultimatly forgoe other ways of excising and being. The quesition is Ultimalty how does Empire make us desire our own represion. I think this alwo trumps all libertarian arguments about contract rites and loss of freedom. Because it is a prerequisite. A value Premis if you will


That being said. I belive that Capitalism is the best worst option. In hippy fantasey world Hart and Negri are right. The problem is if we lived like they wanted us to we would all starve to death and die of diseas. The worst part is that now only poor fokes starve to death and die of diseas. That is where the government has to step in. I respect them. I think that we should embrace diversity and not strive to destroy that which is differnt. I hate the IMF and the World bank. It is sickingin that countries can not have roads irregation hospitals because they have to pay us our money back. Basickly we are all shylock looking for our LB of flesh.


Also though I am a principle in a small busniess. I bust my ass for my family and I love what I do. I think my work is art, and we help peoples busniess become better. Thus making there life better. So commie no. Libertarian Hell no.

On a side note I also like supply side economics becaue I think it provides more tax money not because taxes are bad.



Why the books matter

The repbulic: 1st Yes it is an amazing book. The meat is book 5-7. I have read and studied it many times. If you have an questions please ask. Best book about government there is. I belive that the western empire fell because the empores became slaves to there own desire. They lost the logic and reason nesecary to run an emprie. So long as in america we ellect hard working smart People who love wisdom. Philosophy in greek then we will be fine. Sadly though For Plato Democory is the Third worst type of government, but our republic should solve a lot of these problems. Because we do not have direct representation. 2000 years ago he said that people who inhearte money will have it taken from them in bad busniess deals and then ultimaly support tyrants who say they will avenge the unjust nature of prosperus. It is scary how similear it is to today.


Emprie: 1. It is a great book. Proboly the most important book in political economy in the last 40 years. Second I think if we fail to miss the fundemtal change in reality that has occerd sense the 2nd world war we will never solve the problems that exist in the world today. Also the Chapter on bio-power and capitalism is amazing. The economy of power can be a scary thing. It is not Pax Romana or Pax Americana, But Pax Capital.




I will spell check this when I have more time. I hope it makes sense. I love the Republic I have read it many many times. Also I read empire for the first time when I was 16 It made a hudge impresion on my life. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you. Like I said im going to re-read the article and look for specfic quotes to ty with my opions. Thank you for starting this discoution I have really enjoyed it today.

 

Another Example of faliure of the market causeing human suffering on a mass scale

"what really merits outrage about DDT today is not that South Africa still uses it, as do about five other countries for routine malaria control and about 10 more for emergencies. It is that dozens more do not. Malaria is a disease Westerners no longer have to think about. Independent malariologists believe it kills two million people a year, mainly children under 5 and 90 percent of them in Africa. Until it was overtaken by AIDS in 1999, it was Africa's leading killer. One in 20 African children dies of malaria, and many of those who survive are brain-damaged. Each year, 300 to 500 million people worldwide get malaria."

http://www.rosenblog.com/2004/04/14/everything_you_know_is_wrong.html


1/2 a billion patieance a year and no cure or medicine. Why is that. I know why its because there poor and no one give a $hit about them. It is very F_D UP. Instead of investing billions to save GM from itself the USFG should invest in a cure for Malaria. Yes I understand that we have spend 60 Trillion ruly to stop poverty, but medicine is differnt. We could actaully stop this. Also I think the way we provide welfare is very bad, and quite posibily a racist plot to create a permant under class (yes I did proboly then jump off clif, but I am not the only person that thinks it was coincidental that the same congress that passed the civil rights akt passed welfare and the great socity with the Knowing that it would destory poor comunites. There are even congresional testomony on this point) If this make me a commie I guess so be it. Im not I practice free maket captialism every day. I just realize that there are market ineficancies that need to be corrected. Also I do realize that "Corrected" is bio-polititcal. The great thing about Post/Hyper Modernism is that we are not concerned with absolutes. bio-power is not 100% bad. I think its how I can respect Hardt and Negri and disagree with there Alternative.


Mr. Joe, Did you read the reveiw of Empire in the National Reveiw? If yes I think there are more "fair and ballanced" reviews avalibale.


Also here is a free link to there book you can download it. Just don't sell it to anyone and you will be fine

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/negri/