Gold & Silver price manipulation BUSTED - thoughts?

Greetings everyone,

Somewhat surprised that no-one has posted anything about Deutsche Bank and the recent revelations regarding the manipulation of the gold and silver markets.

For those who are un aware Deutsche Bank as part of a recent lawsuit has recently admitted to rigging gold and silver pricing and are paying out a "valuable monetary compensation" to a settlement fund, but better yet are supposedly going to turn in the other banks who were also involved.

http://www.silverdoctors.com/gold/g...d-prices-agrees-to-expose-other-manipulators/

I for one have thought it was going on for years so it is nice to see the house of cards begin to fall.

Thoughts?

Also what about this new Shanghai gold/silver exchange opening Tuesday? Either of these going to move the price of the metals?

 

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Also reported by reuters

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0XA2RU

 

Never a dull moment. Wonder how this will affect the markets?

 

Deutsche Bank (DB) stock price on Wall street gained 8% ( 1.30) the days after the announcement, so I only expect an onslaught of Bullion advertisements and any jump would be due to unrealistic expectations. And this is expecting the worse in settlements, and most likely it will only benefit the legal firms. No mention of any restrictions from continuing to do the same, and pay another slap on the hands yet.

 

As to the "new" Shanghai bullion exchange, search yahoo and look at what happened to the "old" Shanghai bullion exchange in 2014. It was to displace all of the problems with the "western" exchanges and to have a fair trade. Kinda like hearing about the "New Kmart" ...........Read if for any chance you intended to put money into it. You can bet the Chinese government has the controlling interest.

 

I pay no attention. Seems if a person digs hard enough, some outfit is getting investigated, indicted, or reaching a settlement. I take myself out of it and just look at the price. Good price? I buy. Bad price? I don't buy.

There's only so long a market can get held back until something explodes out the sidewall.

 

Howdy folks,

The market has been 'manipulated' for ever. Anyone who has any sort of market power and in a position to move the needle in their direction - will. You would and so would I. It's not a conspiracy but a simple fact of life. It's a given that you must live with if you want to play this game. And I'm not being flip, it's just the way it is. The stock market is manipulated and rigged against folks like you and I. This does NOT mean you can't make money, it's just that the 'house' is going to get their vigorish. No different from playing blackjack as the casino - the house has the edge - figure that into your strategy and tactics.

peace,

rono

 

Whatever manipulation exists is certainly not the reason why metal bugs have not made a killing or lost money over the last 30+ years since I first heard this claim.

 

Howdy,

One of the brighter investment gurus, Jimmy Rogers, talked about the gold price fixing conspiracy back in the 2000s. He said, that there was no possible way there could be an international conspiracy involving the major banks and central banks to fix the price of anything, leave alone gold, without someone selling the movie rights. Someone would have talked.

Nopers, no great plot. Just institutions with enormous amounts of market clout, using it to their benefit. Just like we all would if we could. This is the way the market has always worked. Read about Jesse Livermore sometime.

and so it goes,

peace,

rono

 

I agree with Jim Rogers but there are many other reasons available which provide much better evidence against any (implied) manipulation claim.

With gold, it is historically overpriced versus most physical goods and presumably many services. The 1995 book At the Crest of the Tidal Wave includes a chart showing gold's relative purchasing power. It was above the top of the price range for the prior 200 years and since then, it has become more relatively expensive. I would have to dig it up but an Elliott Wave International special issue within the last five years shows the same result versus a basket of commodities. I don't have equivalent data but to my knowledge, silver is not significantly underpriced (if at all) versus most other commodities or other physical goods either.

Gold is a lot more important than silver in the financial system, since it is used as a central bank reserve asset while silver has no role and is predominantly an industrial metal. If there was concerted manipulation, it sure has been dismal failure because from a multiple of 25 in February 1976, it has increased to about 70 today.

In 2011, the Swiss National Bank attempted to suppress the CHF-Euro cross rate. I believe in 2014 after accumulating over $500B in FX reserves, they capitulated. In theory, the SNB could have issued an unlimited amount of CHF. In the real world where people actually operate, they did not. If the SNB failed to suppress the CHF, there isn't any reason to believe that "material" (as opposed to possibly limited) gold or silver price suppression has been successful either since neither can be issued in unlimited quantities and anyone can buy it.

 

Let me rock the boat a bit and ask this. How can you actually manipulate something when its value is based on demand? What is this hypothetical supposed value it should have? Aren't we manipulating anything when we buy a large amount?

 

One can buy derivatives nominally based on gold - futures, options, etc. - as well as derivatives based on the derivatives. In such a way, a person who has no intention of owning gold can use the multiplier effect to disproportionally affect the price.

Market manipulations are as old as markers themselves. Plato once tried to corner the olive oil market in Athens by putting a small down payment on every commercial olive press in the city. The Hunt Brothers tried to corner the silver market in the 1970's by buying futures that together totaled more than the actual silver available on the market, a situation they'd helped along by also buying lots of physical silver. It worked, for a while. Then the government changed the rules and the Hunts had to sell most of their futures contracts.

 

When I have read manipulation claims, the implied assumption is that using derivatives disproportionately or only suppresses the price. If there is any actual evidence of it, I have never seen it anywhere; not proof that it succeeded much less for 30+ years. Most traders of derivative contracts are only speculating on the change in monetary value and have no interest in taking physical delivery.

Like the Hunt's, it would be easy enough for physical buyers to overwhelm any actual or supposed manipulation attempt in the silver market because the market is puny. My recollection is that annual production has a market value of about $10B at current prices and a fraction of this amount in additional inflows would be enough to send the price soaring. The reason it hasn't happened is because there aren't enough buyers except during bubbles such as 1979 and 2011.

The gold market is a lot larger but still a small fraction of the stock and bond markets.

 

JM Bullion controls the price of Silver and what coins the US mint puts out =)
For example I had a conversation on JM Bullion in Chat about High Relief gold coins soon later about two months the Mint made that modern Liberty Gold coin.

 

I have always believed that all markets, large or small, U S or foreign, are and always will be manipulated by greed. One must only rely on your own gut feelings with any investments. Whenever large sums of money can be made from an investment, watch your back, for there is always someone trying to relieve you of your wealth. This inherent fact can be traced back to the demise of nearly all economic systems throughout history, and there is probably no change in sight. Do your homework well when investing, keep greed to a minimum, and never fall for trending fads. If it,s too good to be true, don,t believe it.

 

You're manipulating when you buy any amount. It's just that usually the effects are too small for you to see.

 

Yes exactly. How do you really manipulate something that literally lives in a system where any action is a force on it's value?

 

See the problem is not that they are doing it, but they are doing it in a way which artificially keep the real price down.

They do this by selling paper gold/silver contracts. This week in particular was a good example of that bashing with paper.

Pulled this for another article:
Nearly 40 million ounces of paper silver were launched at the Comex yesterday in the space of seven minutes, which triggered a 92 cent waterfall in the price of silver; over 118 million ounces of paper silver were dumped on the Comex today (April 22) between 11 a.m. and noon EST.

http://www.silverdoctors.com/silver...r-manipulation-the-foul-smell-of-desperation/

 

How much do you think silver should be worth right now? How long do you believe this manipulation has been successful?

 

Golly. I wonder what eeeeevilll intent could cause someone to sell a bunch of silver just when it's reached its highest level in almost a year? Sounds to me like "selling high".

But I suppose it could be an evil plot...