[Game] World Coins Time Machine… Counting Backward by Year! (Plus Prize Coin)

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Curtisimo, Jun 14, 2017.

  1. dirty_brian

    dirty_brian Well-Known Member

    ill come back in 1669
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  3. semibovinian

    semibovinian Well-Known Member

    1674 -- Trier, 4 pfennig:

    1674_DE_Trier_4pfennig_1a_DPP_2015_10_21__0039_2.jpg 1674_DE_Trier_4pfennig_1b_DPP_2015_10_21__0040_2.jpg
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  4. PaddyB

    PaddyB Eccentric enthusiast

    Running out fast now! Here I have for 1673 a Scottish Merk - roughly equivalent in buyng power to a shilling at the time, and an English Halfpenny. All the Charles II halfpennies are hard to find.
    1673 Scottish Merk 1.JPG 1673 Scottish Merk 2.JPG 1673 HD 2.JPG 1673 HD 1.JPG
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  5. coin_nut

    coin_nut Supporter! Supporter

    My next one is a 1665...running low on old coins soon!
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  6. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    AV 1674 Brieg Mint
    Georg Wilhem I Herzog 1672-75 6799a8de8171193343a89afe2197025c.jpg
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  7. semibovinian

    semibovinian Well-Known Member

    1673 -- Austria, 6 kreuzer:

    1673_AT_Austria_6kreuzer_mSt_Veit_1o_DPP_2017_10_15__0091_1.jpg 1673_AT_Austria_6kreuzer_mSt_Veit_1r_DPP_2017_10_15__0096_1.jpg
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  8. Jimski

    Jimski Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the feedback @panzerman . I wanted to add this following addendum to my earlier post (#2695). I think it’s very enlightening.

    Evidence on my coin that a thin steel strip with letter cutouts was used on my coin to impress the edge letters during the strike?

    If you look at the snippet from one of my previous photos (below) that “line” under red arrow lies between the first and last letter in the legend, and I think that the line is coin metal squeezed between the 2 edges of a strip of (spring) steel during the strike. The opposite ends of the steel strip could not overlap, so there had to be some clearance designed into the strip to ensure this for all tolerance of planchets. The ends shouldn’t be butted together.

    Evidence of the use of a Castaing machine on the Royal Mint milled halfcrowns?

    According to a Wikipedia: “A copy of Castaing's machine was put into use at the British Royal Mint” (1), but no date is given. Castaing’s machine was first used in France about 1688, (1) so it would have to be sometime after that.

    I checked my collection and found that
    • The halfcrown of 1698 (like the 1675) has the line (and dots, as in the photo above)
    • The later halfcrowns of 1707 and 1745 do not have the line. They both look as below.

    Could it be that top photo illustrates that a metal strip was used for lettering during the strike, and that it was in use from at least 1675 to 1698? And could it be that by 1707 the Royal Mint was using a Castaing machine to (apply the edge lettering to planchets, which were then struck without collars)? The Castaing machine could roll the planchet edge over slightly more than 360 degrees to eliminate any discontinuity.

    (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castaing_machine
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  9. PaddyB

    PaddyB Eccentric enthusiast

    For 1672 I have a threepence, a halfpenny and a farthing:
    1672 3D 1.JPG 1672 3D 2.JPG 1672 HD 1.JPG 1672 HD 2.JPG 1672 F 1.JPG 1672 F 2.JPG
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  10. semibovinian

    semibovinian Well-Known Member

    1672 -- England, 2 pence:

    1672_GB_2pence_1o_DPP_2015_10_21__0056_2.jpg 1672_GB_2pence_1r_DPP_2015_10_21__0057_2.jpg
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  11. Kimotej

    Kimotej Active Member

    Sverige 1 6 öre SM 1671 båda.JPG
    My coins are not anywhere near the fine specimens that are posted by other members, but here is an example of the first series (of three) of the 1/6 öre silver coins (in copper) of Sweden´s Karl XI (Charles 11th) who ruled from 1660-1697. His rule was famous for the very large plate money of up to 12 kilos each, and numismatically for the nice Dukats in gold, Marks in silver, and for the many varieties of especially the Öre denominations.

    This first series (1666-1673) are 25-26 mm in diameter and ther weight is 7.1 grams.
    (2nd series (1674-1680) 25 mm and 7.1 grams; 3rd series (1681-1686) 25-25.5 mm and 6.7 grams).
    The last year of the 1st series has the new feature from the 2nd series - a star in the value (16*73). This example is without the star.

    6 pieces of 1/6 öre silver coin in copper equaled 1 öre silver coin in copper (1st series 46-47 mm 49.4 grams; 2nd series 45-46 mm 42.5 grams; 3rd series 46-49.8 mm 40.5 grams). The 1 öre copper coin (in copper) was only 32-33.5 mm and 17.7 grams. During the same period was also minted a 1 öre silver coin in silver with a diameter of 18-19 mm weighing 1.23 grams in Ag 313/1000. A fun thing is that the 2 öre coin (silver) with twice the value, only weighed 1.76 grams in Ag 444/1000. The difference is rather big, and therefore people could acquire lots of the one coin and get a higher silver value relatively to the other coin. Just like the silver coins that people still seem to get as change today.

    This has been done during all of history, as market values have changed for different goods, be it metals, foods or anything else traded.

    When the coin pictured were used, as in most places at that time, coins in gold, silver and copper circulated simultaneously, and the weight had to be equivalent to the value of the metal in them and represent agreed upon shares of the value of each metal = coin. Thus, the value of the metal had to be what was printed on the coin.
    As the market values of the different metals changed, along with the corrresponding values in the coin and relative values between the coins, the money every now and then had to be divided differently as to the relativity of the shares. (I hope my Scandinavian English makes sence and is understood... :)

    Money counting and values of coins in days gone by (still today in many senses actually) is a complicated thing, and their relative values often changed because of for example wars, lack of actual coins or metals to manufacture them, and resulted therefrom in form of value changes, oftentimes to the worse. The coins from then differ very much from the ones used today in the sense that the value had to be what was printed on them. That is, as we all know, a silver dollar had to consist of silver to the amount (weight) of one dollar.

    A problem occured when coins of copper were introduced. The value of the metal rose and sank in the worlds markets and therefore the value of the copper coin changed realtively towards the silver coin. At times when the copper price rose, plate money and change in copper were shipped out of the country and was melted for a good profit. When the copper price came down, the value of the copper coins on the market also plummeted.

    A short example of how the Swedish coins were related to each other:

    During the Middle Ages in Sweden the weight unit Mark was used, which was divided into 192 shares. In Svealand (part of Sweden) it was counted as follows:

    1 Mark = 8 Öre
    1 Öre = 24 Penningar
    Therefore, 1 Mark = 192 Penningar
    This system lived far into the 18th century.

    During the whole Middle Ages 1 Öre was also divided into 3 Örtugar.

    1 Mark was everywhere divided into 8 öre, but 1 öre was divided differently in different areas within the Swedish Empire:

    Svealand 1 öre = 24 Penningar
    Götaland 1 öre = 48 Penningar
    Linköping including Öland and Gotland 1 öre = 36 Penningar
    From the end of the 13th century 1 öre equaled 24 Penningar over the whole country.

    Now it gets interesting!

    In 1534 the first Dalers (guess where the word Dollar is derived from!) and Mark coins were minted. (Though even earlier some of the greater coins hade been made, but these are not couted among the regular mintings.)
    The relation between values were 1 Daler = 3 Mark, 1 Mark = 8 Öre.

    In the beginning of Gustav Vasa´s rule (Gustav I) Örtugs and Fyrks were minted.
    1 Örtug = 1/2 Öre and 1 Fyrk = 1/4 Öre.

    In 1540 the Fine Weight in silver of the Mark money was lowered, resulting in 1 Daler = 3 1/2 Mark.

    Johan III´s rule (son of Gustav Vasa) was the times of the worst inflation that has ever occured in the country. The value of the Daler coins sank like Titanic all the way to 38 Marks to 1 Daler during the worst inflation in 1592. After the death of Johan the rate was again 1 Daler = 4 Marks.

    During the time of Karl IX (king 1604-1611) there were two different Dalers: the Riksdaler and the "Swedish" Daler. The Daler equaled to 4 Marks and the Riksdaler was worth 6 Marks = 48 Öre.

    When Gustav II Adolf came along (king 1611-1632) he minted vast amounts of copper coins, thus making the value of the Riksdaler rise to 52 Öre because of the scarce availability of the silver coins. As Kristina ("King without pants" 1632-1654) again minted more silver coins, the value of the Riksdaler returned back to 48 Öre.

    As copper coins now overflowed the land and the price of copper sank, their value was lowered accordingly. 1 Daler silver coin now had the value of 2 Dalers copper coin. A few years later the rate sank into 2 1/2 Dalers copper coin. In 1664 the value had diminshed into 3 copper Dalers. This rate stayed more or less the same until the big coin change in 1776.

    Now it gets more complicated = fun!

    We have now got to circa 1665. During the times after this the relative values of the different coins becomes more intricate. Here follows a simplified short version of each value until 1776.

    * The Dukat (gold) had from the beginning the value of 100 öre. From ca 1680-1715 it rose to 128 öre, 1715-1719 -> 160 öre, and 1719-1776 -> 192 öre.

    * The value of the Riksdaler rose in 1664 to 52 öre, and 1681 again to 64 öre. During the last years of Karl XII (king 1697-1718) it equaled 96 öre, which remained stable until the big money reform in 1776.

    * The Carolin (= 2 Marks silver) rose from 16 öre to 18 2/3 öre during the years 1681-1685. Later it rose to 20 öre and in the end the value reached 25 öre to 2 Marks.

    During The big money reform in 1776 the old coin system was rejected and 1 Riksdaler now equaled 48 Skillings. 1 Skilling = 12 Rundstycken.

    The Riksgäldskontoret was founded in 1789 and the same year the state office began issuing paper money. Since these bank notes were not exchangeble for silver, and because way too many notes were issued, their value went down. To be able to distinguish the Riksgäldskontoret notes from the Riksens Ständers Bank notes, the word "Riksgälds" was added to the sum.
    1 Riksdaler in banco notes = 1 1/2 Riksdaler Riksgälds.
    A difference was also made between banco notes of the values Riksdaler and Skilling banco relative to silver coins of the value Riksdaler Specie (specie = "clinking" coins).
    1 Riksdaler Specie = 128 Skilling banco or 1 2/3 Riksdaler banco. 1 Dukat was about 5 Riksdaler Specie and 32 Skilling banco.

    In 1855 the decimal system was introduced into the coin system and 1 Riksdaler Riksgälds gets the name Riksdaler Riksmynt which equals 100 öre. 1 Dukat is now 8 Riksdaler and 25 öre. 1 Carolin (10 Francs) = 7 Riksdaler and 10 öre.

    1873 the Krona is introduced which equals 100 öre. This system is used still today, though the öre is mere a digital value and are not minted anymore. No öre coins have been produced since 2009 and can no longer be used.
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  12. coin_nut

    coin_nut Supporter! Supporter

    That was a good long history lesson and I must admit, I am not going to remember all the details. I have a lot of different Swedish coins and I like them quite well. I commend you for your in depth knowledge on this subject!
    So, that seems to have been 1671, I must wait for 6 more years....
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  13. PaddyB

    PaddyB Eccentric enthusiast

    My 1671 is a rather nice Half Crown. No copper for this year, or in fact any earlier year in England. (There are some undated farthings and the Scots probably have same bodies and bawbies...)
    1671 HC 1.JPG 1671 HC 2.JPG
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  14. semibovinian

    semibovinian Well-Known Member

    1671 -- Brandenburg, 1/24 thaler:
    1671_DE_Brandenburg_1`24thaler_1a_DPP_2015_10_21__0033_2.jpg 1671_DE_Brandenburg_1`24thaler_1b_DPP_2015_10_21__0034_2.jpg
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  15. Jimski

    Jimski Well-Known Member

    You know very much about Swedish coins. Could you help me understand the following:

    Öre In early medieval times the term referred to weight. Late medieval times it was an accounting term used in all the Nordic countries. The öre was first minted as silver coin in 1522.The value of öre in coin was not the same in “accounting öre”.

    Öre was an accounting term before it was a coin? I have no idea what this author is trying to say.
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  16. PaddyB

    PaddyB Eccentric enthusiast

    This is the last of my continuous run - I miss 1669, I can do 1668 and then I miss a few more.
    This is the 1670 Half Crown:
    1670 HC 1.JPG 1670 HC 2.JPG
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  17. Kimotej

    Kimotej Active Member

    Thank You, Jimski!

    It is true that Öre was an old weight. The word Öre is derived from the Latin word Aureus which means "(made out) of gold" or "gold coin". Aurum is the Latin word for gold, hence the short form Au from the Periodic System we all tried to learn in school chemistry.

    The Aureus was a gold coin from the Roman era , which (if I remember right) was divided, or corresponded to the value of, 25 silver Denars. The Aureus might also have been divided differently during different periods. Members collecting Roman coins can surely enlight us and tell us more about this!

    In Scandinavia the Öre as a weight unit is known to have been used since the time of the Vikings, and was in the beginning a weight unit for gold. This leads us to assume that the Öre weight was very small, since one would have wanted to be very accurate when measuring gold.

    It was not until later that the Öre was used as a coin. The first Öre coins (in silver) were struck in 1522 and then had the value (or equaled to the weight of) 1 Mark.

    The Mark was an old Germanic weight unit used primarily for measuring (precious) metals, and is the oldest Swedish weight unit used for this purpose. During the Middle Ages it was almost only goods like spices, butter and some other foods that were measured in Mark weights, and for these goods were usually used Markpund vågvikt or Besmanvikt. Other goods were more seldom weighed during the Viking Age nor the Middle Ages, but they were instead measured or counted each according to their specific circumstances.

    The actual weight of the Mark again changed from time to time, which makes it more difficult to guess the exact weight of the Öre.
    The Vikings used a Mark of about 203 grams.
    During the Middle Ages the Mark weight varied somewhat from 208 to 218 grams. Data from two "accuracy agents" - I do not really know what to call them - that were sent to Sweden by the Pope in 1327-28 shows that the Stockholm Mark corresponded to 207.2 grams (which would give the Öre of that time a weight of 25.9 g) and the Skara Mark instead was equivalent to 213.3 grams (26 2/3 g).

    The coin weight for the Mark in the 16th century and beginning of the 17th was 210.6 grams, which gives the Öre of that time a weight of ca 26 1/3 grams. From the latter part of the Middle Ages the Mark used for coins and precious metals "Lödig mark" was divided into 8 Uns = 16 Lod = 64 Qvintin = 4424 Ass = 210.6 grams, which replaced the earlier division of 1 Mark = 8 Öre = 24 Örtugar. (As was also used by the Romans as a coin). 1 Lod when used as a coin weight was 13.16 grams.

    A funny thing is that 2 Lod = 548 Ass = 1 Uns (ounce, oz) equals 26.3 grams of silver but 27.9 grams of gold and for medicine 29.69 grams). The Uns comes from the Roman unit Uncia = 27.3 grams. Today the ounce is 28.35 grams.)

    After several measuring reforms in the 17th century the Mark finally was defined as 1/2 Skålpund = 212.5 grams. (26.56 grams to 1 Öre)

    During the 19th century they began to use the term One Skålpund for the Mark, though it actually was only 1/2 Skålpund.

    It is tempting to assume, though, that the early Öre weight was lighter, so as to be more accurate in the measuring of gold. The oldest European weighing form was the Eyrir = Aureus from the Roman Iron Age (AD 1-400) based on the gold standard mentioned above (gradually lowered to 24.5 grams). Later the Ertog of about 8 grams was taken into use, originally based on a silver standard. This probably was to replace the Frisian coin Tremissis that had a weight of some 1.3 grams and consisted of 30% gold. The Tremissis was used until AD 680.

    2 Örtugs (Ertog) = 1 öre (see my prevoius article) which would suggest 1 öre = circa 16 grams.

    The Penning was about the same as the Anglo-Sachsian coin by the same name (Penny). In Northumbria during the first half of the 9th century was earlier used a copper coin called Styccas. The Lodbrog son Halvdan intruduced in 871-872 the first Pennings struck in the Frisian trade city Quentowic. A later coin (CNVT REX) from York and from from the beginning of the 10th century (from the Cuerdale-treasure) is considered to be struck at Quentowic. A Penning corresponds to a Frankian Denier as well as to an Arabian Half Dirhem.
    During the end of the 9th century the standard system Mörk evolved, possibly in Scandinavia, and this unit spread to England and later into Germany.

    1 mörk = 8 aurar (eyrir, öre) = 24 ertogs = 240 penningar.

    Some have suggested the Frisian Sceattas as a corresponding candidate to the Öre weight. After AD 700 the trade grew, and the Frisians got into their hands from an unknown source huge amounts of silver, wherefrom they in the period 720-750 minted millions of own coins (sceattas), struck in several places along the Frisian coast. These were spread to all trading places. Sceatta is from the period 695-750 and is a small silver coin of 11 mm and weighs 1.2 g.

    The Danish Coin Reform of 670 established a certain coin heft (I hope it is the right word) - in old Nordic language silfrmetinn = heft for silver value, establisher of value. This weighs 16.5 grams, has a diameter of 25 mm and is made of bronze. Silver coins used in all landscapes of Denmark from 670-755 weigh 1-1.2 grams. Silver coins struck at York during Anlaf Guthfrithsson (939-941) weigh 1.26 grams. (A similar heft made out of lead with a coin with a grinning face of Ethelred I of Wessex (865-871) can be seen in the British Museum, Room 68). These hefts are known also from the market places of Scandinavia and Dublin.

    My guess is that the goal weight should be 12 silver coins, that would give an exchange rate of 1/2 gold skilling, 1/2 unze (Ynce) silver and 1/2 öre. As the silver coins weigh 1.2-1.26 gram the heft should be 12 X (1.2-1.26) gram or 14.4-15.1 gram. As the heft actually weighs 16.5 gram, corresponding to 13 silver coins, the heft counts 1 coin more than it should. This could be called fraud, but rather shows the 8% profit / mark up that the exchanger, called ”metandi”, has taken for his trade and for the use of his tool at the Burnham Market, where it was found many centuries later. That may be why the picture on the heft is smiling all the way to the bank!

    In my opinion the "Örtug" (Gothic ”ertaug”, old Swedish ”ørtugh”, old Danish ”ørtug, ortug”) is the oldest weight unit we have in Scandinavia, and possibly is from the Bronze Age. In Sweden the first Örtug coins were struck by King Albrekt in circa 1370. They weigh about 1.30 grams and have a fineness of 800/1000 silver. As 1 öre apparently sometimes = 2 örtugs, and sometimes = 3 örtugs, it is difficult to establish the exact Öre weight.

    Perhaps someone else here knows more or is able to help?
  18. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Learned a lot.....great post!
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  19. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    Here in my only 1670...

    AV Dukat 1670 Danzig Mint
    Michael Korybut/ King of Poland 7d8beb9cb312fb5dfe3dda5ba4937a88.jpg
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  20. semibovinian

    semibovinian Well-Known Member

    1670 -- Austria, 3 kreuzer:

    1670_AT_3kreuzer_1o_DPP_2015_10_21__0052_2.jpg 1670_AT_3kreuzer_1r_DPP_2015_10_21__0053_2.jpg
    Curtisimo, jj00, Stork and 6 others like this.
  21. Jimski

    Jimski Well-Known Member

    Thanks @Kimotej, you have answered my question very well, and probably some that I will have in the future (I'll save your post).
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