First Strike vs. Proof

Discussion in 'Bullion Investing' started by JBGood, Jul 13, 2012.

  1. JBGood

    JBGood Collector of coinage Supporter

    Is there a meaningful, apparent difference between these?
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  3. rickmp

    rickmp Frequently flatulent.

    Yes. They are struck from differently prepared dies.
    Also, circulation quality coins are struck only once while proof coins are struck twice and under much higher pressure.

    The first strike designation is only conferred by the TPG. There is no real way to tell when a coin came out of the press.
  4. bkozak33

    bkozak33 Collector

    first strike is a marketing ploy. your comparing apples and oranges.
  5. JBGood

    JBGood Collector of coinage Supporter

    that's what i'm thinking because "first strike" doesn't show up in the "red book".
  6. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball Cannot Re-Member

    Of course it doesn't! It shows up in the pockets of the people selling these useless slabs.

    You can't blame the grading services for cashing in on this opportunity to make a little money.

  7. JBGood

    JBGood Collector of coinage Supporter

    It makes me suspicious of the grading services.
  8. rickmp

    rickmp Frequently flatulent.

    The TPG's don't charge extra for "Early Release", "First Release", "Early Strike", etc. labels. They are not making money on the labels, per se. They are making money because their customers demand those labels and they may be grading more coins because of that offering. Those labels don't have anything to do with what grade the coin is given. Only in the after-market do those labels add (real or perceived) value. There is really no reason to distrust the TPG's because of the offer of those labels. There might be other reasons to distrust them, though, but I'm not going to go there.

    I'm guilty of wanting those labels because they do increase the money I can get when I sell.
  9. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Sure, you're a label collector. There's nothing wrong with that. There are a lot of label collectors these days. You should collect what you want. Some of us collect labels, others coins.
  10. Chiefbullsit

    Chiefbullsit CRAZY HORSE

    PCGS charges $18 per coin for the First Strike label unless you have a bulk submission which will be a little cheaper.
  11. Clint

    Clint Member

    Hmm...was the OP answered? The usual question is "proof vs. Uncirculated," due to the striking process mentioned above. Your question IS a case of apples vs. oranges, also mentioned above. Proofs can also be designated "first strike" or "early release," depending on how the TPG decides...

    The secondary question brought up: "Do FS/ER have any valuable meaning?" The investment answer is "yes," since people will pay more for them. In terms of the quality of the coin itself--were you also wondering that?--I honestly don't know! But consider this...(and most of you who know so much more than I, please make corrections where indicated!)

    Each coin that gets minted has been struck by a die. Those dies wear out and get replaced. The later in the process (say, the last of 5,000 coins struck on the same die), the more likely the coin would get a weaker strike. Would that be noticeable with modern (I daresay, "post-modern") techniques? Again, I don't know.

    Next, if you received the first coin of the 2nd die, wouldn't it logically be a firmer strike than #5,000 mentioned above? However both of those, and all in between, would likely be qualified for ER/FS, as well as tens of thousands struck thereafter, if buyers took possession "early" and had them graded.

    If that's all true, then does FS/ER seem like a farce? Perhaps; however I reserve judgement until I learn more. Will I continue to pay up to 5% more for them? Sure. Some people play the lottery...
  12. rickmp

    rickmp Frequently flatulent.

    ER and ES labels only reflect the date of grading in regard to the date of release, not when the coin came from the die.

    Yes, those designations are a farce, but there are still people that are willing to pay extra for those labels. That's why I get them. I don't pay extra for them, though.
  13. Hobo

    Hobo Squirrel Hater

    For many, many years coin collectors called the first (or sometimes the first few) coins struck by a new pair of dies 'first strike' coins. These 'first strike' coins have sharper details than the coins struck after the dies have worn.

    PCGS has trademarked the term 'First Strike' and defines it as:

  14. Clint

    Clint Member

    And so, isn't it weird that the same designation, potentially implying sharper details, is given to coins from multiple dies, in varied levels of condition (however minute, under 21st century conditions)?
  15. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    You know that but the people that are willing to pay extra for those labels don't and that's the only reason it's a rewarding investment. ;)
  16. Hobo

    Hobo Squirrel Hater

    That was my point. The term 'First Strike' now has no real meaning whatsoever except that the coin was struck sometime during the first month (or whatever time period PCGS designates). So you could have the very last coin struck by a pair of dies at the end of their life (LDS or Late Die State) with muted details because of the wear on the dies and this coin could be in a PCGS 'First Strke' slab. To me the term 'First Strike' no longer means anything except somebody got ripped off.
  17. avr5700

    avr5700 Member

    Is any sovereign mint etching identifiers into their coins so anything like this could actually be tracked? Probably not.

    Since words still have meaning to me, 'first strike' should be reserved for the very first planchet hit by a new dye and no other. That would be something...
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