Emperion Hamburg

Thank you for the tip, svessien . I'll check it out.

I've done some homework before I started collecting but I still have a lot to learn...

I have always assumed that auction houses were a reliable choice. The idea behind the thought: ancients is a niche market. Any house that would knowingly sell fakes on a regular basis would soon be out of business. (Word would spread (as it does now) and the auction house would lose its reputation). So I assumed it was a self-cleansing market.
Guess I'll stick to Biddr, Roma and Leu and the likes for the time being...

 

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I believe you’re also from Norway?
Emporium has a 20kr 1902 for sale. Bidding starts at 320 euro. With todays euro price, that’s 1000 kroner more than bid start on Oslo Myntgalleris next auction. And OMG are far from cheap. (This coin is worth bullion +10-20% in my book). In addition you have to pay 20% comission plus shipping. A thoroughly bad deal for the buyer.
Coin collecting is a great hobby, but sadly you also have to deal with a lot of shenanigans.

Right now a lot of money is leaving the stock market and entering other markets. So we will have record prices, while the economy in general is at a standstill and probably entering recession. It’s important to be a critical buyer in such times.

 

Live here, originally Dutch... but it's nice to meet a fellow collector from Norway
Greetings!

I followed a few countermarked Greeks/Romans the other day in a Savoca auction hoping to pick up one or two at the price they they usuallyto go at. They all went at double, triple the price. Bad time to lurk in auctions.

 

For me as an economist, that makes no sense. 1) Money is not leaving the stock market. Every stock that somebody sells is a stock that somebody else buys. Since selling pressure is bigger than buying pressure, stock prices tumble. Hence, people lost a lot of paper-wealth. People's investment in stocks outright or through their pensions are now worth much less than they were before. This so called wealth effect causes People to increase saving to make up for the lost paper-wealth. Hence, when stock prices collapse less money will be spend on coins and in fact most other goods and services.

 

That’s what I thought would happen in 2007-2010 too, because what you say makes the most sense.
Instead we got a very hot coin market at that time, and if the newsletters from the auction houses are correct, the market is getting record prices now too.
I believe the reason is that people sell off funds, and place the money elsewhere.

Here’s an analysis from another economist, concerning the art market which is similar to the coin market:
«Turmoil in the global financial markets, which started in 2007, did not materially alter the volume of sales until 2009, at which time the high-end art market experienced a sharp contraction in the number of expensive artworks being purchased. This decline occurred just as stock prices were beginning to rebound, reaffirming the view that art lags equity markets by six to eighteen months.»

https://medium.com/@masterworksio/what-happens-to-art-in-a-financial-crisis-2cc9c20451b8

 

Again, sell-off in the financial markets means that people are a lot poorer than they thought they were. This is not usually a reason to spend money on ancient coins, paintings, antiques, cars, holidays and so. Ask yourself this: you have 100000 dollars invested in stocks for your pension. Then comes a sell-off and you loose 50000 dollars. What do you do, take the 50000 and buy coins?

 

I contacted Emporium Hamburg with my concerns regarding the authenticity of their coins. They haven't responded. I take this as an admission of guilt.

 

I believe there’s a broader picture than your example. Let’s just leave it at that.

 

I’ve sent a message to Numisbids as well. Hopefully if they get enough messages they’ll address the issue.

 

I just received a response from Numisbids. I understand their position but the lack of action to remove EH from their listings is disappointing.

Thanks for your email.

We've already been in contact with Emporium Hamburg about the issues you've raised, and they've promised to have a closer look at the lots in question in their current auction.

We take your concerns seriously, but unfortunately we can't monitor every lot offered by our advertisers or act as a referee when it comes to the authenticity of specific items. As an advertising service for all areas of numismatics, I'm sure you can understand it would be impossible and unreasonable for us to attempt this.

Regarding endorsement, our policy is that we specifically do not endorse any auction house or the items they sell. But we do our best to ensure that advertisers meet certain basic requirements and will act ethically. Among the details we look at are the number of years an auction house has been in business and its memberships in dealer organizations.

Again, we have passed along your concerns, and we hope that Emporium will take action. But we can't promise that we can change their mind.

Best regards,

A.J. Gatlin

 

EMPORIUM Hamburg also likes to attribute their fakes to very ephemeral rulers like the Gepidic king Turisint. To back up their claim they reference F. Stefan 1920s. If you look up the reference as I did, you realize that the author does not show or discuss such coins. So the reference is just as fake as their coins.
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5896956


They also offer other things like rare coin weights and seals, which are also modern fakes:
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2735421

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2735422

 

Let me see if I understand this: You hold every fake by every seller against the platform eBay but you continue to patronize Numisbids or any other platform that does not police the houses they represent??? The only pressure that someone like Numisbids would respect is that from the other major auction houses that are listed by them. If the legitimate houses wanted to distance themselves from the bad actors, they have the tools to do it. If they don't see benefit in cleaning up the mess, nothing will change. This, of course, assumes that there are major houses that are honest beyond question. Are there? Prove it.

 

All of the respectable auction houses research their consignment material before putting them in auction/ sixbid. Kunker/ CNG/ Heritage/ Stacks/ Morton&Eden/ Baldwins of St. James/ Ars Classica are some examples. If, I started one, my first priority would be to make sure that the coins are authentic/ then have strict grading/ great/ prompt service. So, I really cannot understand why some would want to ruin their reputation its just bad way to do business.

 

I received the following message from Numisbids today:

We received word today from Emporium that they've withdrawn a large
number of lots in the late Roman section. I think this covers most (if
not all) of the problematic coins you highlighted.

Thanks for bringing the issue to my attention.​

They've only withdrawn some of the problem coins (not the Byzantines, for example), but at least this is progress.

As noted above, one of Numisbids' main reasons for listing the firm is that it belongs to Germany's dealer's association, Berufsverband des Deutschen Münzenfachhandels. I would encourage everyone to write to this association at info@muenzenverband.de. If the association dumps them then the auction sites will surely delist them until they can re-establish their membership.

 

Some German auction houses in numismatic are suspicious but still in business for a long time like Lantz that is even not anymore member of AINP.

 

As we talk about if some auctions houses are more suspicious than other or you got problems with them. I bought recently coins from NAVILLE London and to Artemides (that say to hVe an office in Austria) could you give me infomations about reliability of both auctions houses that are small ones. I consider I am a newbie in numismatic and I ask you kindly to help me to avoid mistakes biding with some auctions houses.

 

I did receive a follow up message from Numisbids. Said they would monitor more closely as they had not previously received complaints and didn’t realize EH was a repeat offender so that is encouraging.

I’m thankful the members of CT aren’t reluctant to share their concerns about an auction house and call out specific lots. I don’t want to be a counterfeit coin witch hunt community, but we need to continue to watch out for each other whenever possible in this hobby we love.

 

I have bought on several occasions from Artemide. Never had any concerns or misgivings. But then again I am not the world's most experienced collector either...

 

Thanks so much SA. Here is the response that I sent them:
Hello,
I was surprised to read that you have Emporium Hamburg in your exclusive society/association. They are nothing better than low down hucksters swindling unknowing new inexperienced collectors. They sell garbage intentionally and have for years. This behavior does nothing but chase new collectors away from the hobby. It is an outrage that they should be a part of such a prestigious group. I assume they slid in under your nose and it has not been realized yet. Please realize that they need to be banned from being able to sell their fake coins. It is a black eye on one of my favorite countries for numismatics that they should be part of your association. Dump them before they dump anymore fake coins and continue to ruin our beloved hobby.

 

I just had my first experience with Artemides and must say, they were excellent! They even gave me the letters of authenticity! They are who I just got this lot of coins from: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/the-beat-goes-on-ladi-dadi-da.357468/ ...I'll show you the main mark from this shipment when I have time to give it a proper write up. But they are the goods as far as this interaction went.