Did anyone buy anything in the latest Frank Robinson auction?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by DonnaML, Sep 2, 2020.

  1. Hamilcar Barca

    Hamilcar Barca Well-Known Member

    I understand your concerns. However, I know it is a fake, or as I prefer to call it a copy, and I will label it as such in my collection. As a recovering accountant I am rather anal about keeping an exhaustive descriptive file on every coin I have collected. This one will be labeled as a copy.

    As I will never sell my collection while I am alive, my wife has instructions to deliver my coins and descriptions to a well known auction house who will clearly understand this coin is not real.

    This may not relieve you of your concerns but it does for me.
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  3. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I understand sir, and never thought it was the immediate buyers I was concerned with. Its more what happened with this coin over the next century? Will every owner be so conscientious? I just don't like fakes that aren't stamped as fakes personally.
  4. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    The coin is hardly deceptive and was not made to fool people. Anyone who is in the market for an EID MAR and can't tell this is not good has bigger problems than we can solve.
  5. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    Is there some simple way that the buyer of such a replica could stamp a "C" onto it?
  6. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Decades ago I bought a small stamp with the word COPY. I take a small hammer and place that on any fakes I come into ownership of, (group lots, etc). I have seen others use permanent sharpies. Neither may be perfect, but it makes me feel better about trying to stamp them out.

    To be fair, I do have a "grey box". Coins I am not positive about, but have suspicions. I do not want to permanently damage them until I am sure.

    Its just what I do and my attitude. I think it stems from SO MANY people coming up to me to value their "rare ancient coins" when I was the only ancient collector at the Des Moines Coin Club. ALL of them were fakes, but at least half the people thought I was lying to them about the value of grandpa's "treasure". I had more than one complaint to show organizers how I was trying to "scam them", even though I NEVER offered to buy anything. It made me truly detest fakes and the damage it does to our hobby.

    Like I said, just my opinion/attitude. Not judging anyone else.
  7. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    I strongly discourage that. People who think they know it all would decide that genuine coins were copies and ruin perfectly good ancients. Can you tell a fake from a barbarous from a branch mint product? Can you tell a modern copy from a 200 year old one from a 2000 year old one. If you think you are capable 100% of the time, you are dangerous. This seems trivial compared to the regular reports of people released from prison after decades of having been locked up for something they did not do. Being 99.9% correct means nothing to the .1% you will ruin. Keep your stamps off my coins.
    Pellinore and zumbly like this.

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    ...Woops, over the last couple of days, I saw 'A coin's fall from the Graces. Post of Shame,' and other threads, linking to a very good thread on Forvm Ancient Coins. To all appearances, the attribution was an exercise in wishful thinking from the beginning. And dealers ran with it ...and ran, and ran.
    Fortunately, Frank Robinson reiterated the fact that he accepts returns --although he already sent the coin; kind of the downside of his penchant for sending stuff 'on approval,' since the Paypal hadn't cleared. ...Whew. That was money I didn't have to throw away.
    From now on, for Anything with Pharoahnic connotations, I'm gonna stick with stuff with the kind of provenance the Meroitic amulet had. ...That's already what's taken so long in finding any other amulets or scarabs. Still wanting something, anyway, to represent the 18th (19th? ok ...I guess) and/or the 25th Dynasties.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2020
    TIF likes this.
  9. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    Sorry for the disappointment, @+VGO.DVCKS. I remember seeing that coin listed with Nectanebo's name, and thinking to myself, "Didn't I read somewhere that these coins are all really from Syria"?

    Speaking of disappointments, that Marc Antony legionary denarius I won that you admired so much -- I did too! -- turns out to be a well-made modern fake. A fellow CT-er who wants to remain nameless sent me a private message with photos of a number of other examples of coins he knows to be fake (some withdrawn from major auctions) that die-match my coin exactly (although some have different legion numbers on the reverse). There's also another Legion XIX fake that die-matches mine on both sides among the fake coin reports at Forvm Ancient Coins:

    leg_XIX_11-05_L  FAKE example Mark Antony legionary denarius.jpg

    (The url at Forum for this coin doesn't work for me, but you can find the coin in the fake coin reports by searching for XIX AND Antony.)

    These coins were produced by a forger who's apparently still active, probably in Bulgaria. I was warned that there are tons of fake Antony legionary denarii out there, and that one should be very wary of buying his legionary denarii (especially, I think, when they're in this kind of excellent condition, like all the fake examples I saw), unless they have provenances going back 20 or 30 years.

    Frank Robinson readily accepted the evidence, and apologized to me (which I didn't think was really necessary; he didn't do this on purpose and anyone can be fooled). Although by the time I wrote him he had already mailed out my coins, he said that when I get them I should just return the Antony and deduct the cost (plus NYC sales tax and the cost of sending the coin back to him) from my payment. I hope he can recover whatever he paid for it from his own source.

    So: a major disappointment, because I really liked the coin. It's probably going to be a while before I try to buy another Mark Antony legionary denarius!
  10. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    ...Oh, nnnnnnoooO. Serious condolences, DonnaML. And thank you for yours. ...And from here, especially with the lettering, that's a Good Fake!
    ...I have a good story about the one legionary denarius I ever had. Was at a local coin show, c. 1990 (within a couple of years, to either side); found one, unattributed, in somebody's junk box. From memory, it was worn, maybe at the expense of the number of the legion. A collector in my acquaintance was there. He said that he'd just looked at that junk box, and missed it. I said something like, 'Yeah, and I knew what it was, and you didn't.' Except, he insisted that I sell it to him, at some now-pathetic markup. ...I'd already spent a good part of the afternoon buying stuff, then selling it to collectors. According to calculations made at the time, I was making more, at an hourly rate, than I ever had (...or have since). But at a still-impressionable age, I was more subject to such rhetorical strong-arming than nowadays (...live in hope). And there it went. ...Yeah, it would be some serious poetic justice if That one was fake, but I frankly doubt it.
    So, Yeah, Condolences. But congratulations on how you did with Frank Robinson.
    DonnaML likes this.
  11. dadams

    dadams Well-Known Member

    That’s a bummer on the legionary. The one I had purchased came from FSR as well, but even two years down the road he took the return. I’ve still not replaced it and am somewhat leery of them now.
    DonnaML and +VGO.DVCKS like this.
  12. cmezner

    cmezner do ut des Supporter

    @DonnaML Those are really bad news, what a deception having won a coin and find out it is a fake!! Have been there. So good you found out, contacted Frank, and he accepted and apologized. Well done.

    Now I am worried if one of the ones I won are also fakes. Will check the fakes report
    +VGO.DVCKS and DonnaML like this.
  13. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    It appears that the fakes discussed in that thread are the same basic type as mine. I should have looked for threads like that one, and at the Forvm fake coin reports, before buying the coin. Maybe I've gotten too lazy about that recently when the dealer is reputable, and should be more careful with historically famous coins that are commonly forged. I'm lucky I was warned before making payment, although I am sure, as your example proves, that he would have willingly given me a refund even if I had already paid.
    +VGO.DVCKS, dadams and cmezner like this.
  14. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    That's really a shame @DonnaML. I looked at that coin thinking it would be a nice upgrade to mine.
    Marcus Antonius  Leg XIX.jpg
    Edessa, Broucheion, singig and 3 others like this.
  15. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    ...Well, Bing, what to say? Real is a Big improvement on fake. ...The 'lipstick on a pig' meme leaps to mind. --More or less involuntarily.
    ...This is the main reason I'm terrified of buying anything ancient online, if it's anything that everyone and their extended family are looking for. ...Back to cheap AEs on ebay.
    So far, fake medievals, even struck ones, are that much easier to spot, on the basis of engraving alone. ...Oh, No, maybe that's next.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
    DonnaML and cmezner like this.
  16. singig

    singig Well-Known Member

    I followed your thread from the beginning, sad to find out today that is fake example.
    Your coin motivated me to upgrade my first legionary denarius (a very corroded one, LEG VII) , this is the new one LEG IV , bought yesterday:
    I used this old thread to find information about the rarity degree of each type :
  17. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    Very nice!
    singig likes this.
  18. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    That's a very nice example @singig. Here is my example
    Marcus Antonius Leg IV.jpg
  19. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    I bought a lot of 33 late roman bronzes for $205, or $6.20 per.

    Expect to see a ton of posts regarding those whenever I finally receive the lot...
  20. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs Supporter! Supporter

    That is unfortunate - but a good ending with the money returning to you. I also have to say - whoever that was who PM'd you on the fake - with evidence... VERY impressive and compassionate.
    A wonderful way to handle a situation like this.

    The alternative, which we have all seen so often: yelling "FAKE" on the forums just kinda sucks for everyone involved..
  21. KeviniswhoIam

    KeviniswhoIam Well-Known Member

    Im a member of several ancients Facebook groups....and when someone posts a new acquisition in the group, its a free-for-all on who can say its a fake first. No discussion, no examples, just pronouncements of "ITS FAKE"! Here, not so much.....much more helpful folks.....and as one who is new, very much appreciate the help in this forum. Keep up the good work, all you guys who know more than myself (and thats pretty much everyone!)
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