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<p>[QUOTE="Prime Mover, post: 2753977, member: 38783"]So we have now a bunch of interesting replies and good discussion, this is what I had hoped for. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie1" alt=":)" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /></p><p><br /></p><p>I'm not going to quote individual pieces because, well, I'm lazy <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie2" alt=";)" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /></p><p><br /></p><p>First off, I'm going to say again that I don't believe Bitcoin's value (usage) is being as a replacement currency. I see it as pretty much a new, digital Gold or Silver. The parallels are unmistakable - you have to "mine" your coins, there is a finite amount available, and it is given a (substantial) financial value even though there is nothing "backing it". Honestly, it's metal that's pulled out of the ground. It has some uses industrially, but really, what makes it so special above and beyond any other metal we pull out of the ground that also has industrial uses? Steel is much more "precious" than gold, we couldn't have anything we have today without it, yet it's worthless compared to any PM. </p><p><br /></p><p>To quote above, anyone who assigns an artificial value above and beyond basic usage to something should be by definition delusional. Yet here we are on a coin collecting board watching and talking about things that have a face value of $0.01 going for thousands, tens of thousands, or even millions of dollars. Why? It's only "real" value is $0.01. Something is worth whatever people are willing to pay for it, for whatever perceived reason, logical or not. And most times, it's illogical and backed by nothing concrete.</p><p><br /></p><p>Now, to the whole "drugs and hookers and tax avoidance thing". Yeah, so what? If you are a person of nefarious intentions, you're going to use whatever tool you can to facilitate those means. PM's, jewels, cold hard cash, and now Bitcoin are used for it. Bitcoin is a tool in that belt, sure. Anyone who denies it is living in a dream world, just as anyone who thinks only Bitcoin is used for that is also living in the same.</p><p><br /></p><p>I will argue that Bitcoin is actually MORE traceable than US cash for illegal activities. Back to my last post, EVERY transaction made is recorded in a publicly available ledger. You can literally follow your Satoshi (a Satoshi is the Bitcoin equivalent of a cent, in simple terms) from the moment you "spend" it, forever more as it travels (anyone familiar with the "where is George" dollar bill tacking effort?). Take these recent Ransomware attacks. The ransom was paid in Bitcoin, and you'd think hey, illegal usage, and they'll never catch them. Nope. The authorities know the Bitcoin addresses where the ransoms were paid to, and are watching them for any movement. So, the thieves have collected zero so far, and as soon as they try to move the money, it'll be followed and they will be caught when trying to cash out. Even if it's 20 years from now. Yeah, try to do that with Cash.</p><p><br /></p><p>For every 1 bad thing associated with Bitcoin, there are hundreds if not thousands of good things that aren't trumpeted. There's a small family shop out in Utah (Bees Brothers if you care to look it up) where the boys were doing a project for school and it turned into a love of beekeeping. They took that and turned it into a business where they make and sell honey-based products, and guess what for? Bitcoin. I've bought some of their honey caramels, they are wonderfully tasty. They also sell for normal US fiat, of course.</p><p><br /></p><p>Everyone has a right to be skeptical about Bitcoin, for sure. The book is still being written, and right now, no one knows how the final chapter will go. Not even the creators know, and I'm sure there are plenty of the original folks marveling at just how far its come.</p><p><br /></p><p>The way I prefer to look at Bitcoin is that it was the first step in testing the water for a migration to digital "currencies", and it was setting the stage for an entire new way of thinking about the concept of "money" and how it can evolve into the current digital age and beyond. Look at monetary units over time, how they evolved, how they started from nothing (literally) and grew to be used for commerce. This is just the next step in evolution.</p><p><br /></p><p>If you twist the perception lens around, you can draw parallels to current monetary methods and see how it COULD work out. Take a look at it from the angle of Bitcoin = gold, Litecoin, Ethereum, CoinX = silver, platinum, etc. Then all the other alts as all the other types of currencies each country is using. There would be Dashcoin, Dogecoin, CoinX/Y/Z instead of rubles, drachmas, yen, etc.</p><p><br /></p><p>The biggest thing here is adoption. Remember, Bitcoin is the oldest one, and it's less than 10 years old. 10 YEARS! It's got growing pains, many of them, for sure. But, it's coming to a point where it is reaching critical mass and it is now in the conversations of more people on a daily basis, those from all walks of life, not just Geeks and Nerds and coders in mommy' basement. Yeah, it could crash and burn, and we have to be cognizant of that.</p><p><br /></p><p>This got way too long, I'll cut it here for now.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Prime Mover, post: 2753977, member: 38783"]So we have now a bunch of interesting replies and good discussion, this is what I had hoped for. :) I'm not going to quote individual pieces because, well, I'm lazy ;) First off, I'm going to say again that I don't believe Bitcoin's value (usage) is being as a replacement currency. I see it as pretty much a new, digital Gold or Silver. The parallels are unmistakable - you have to "mine" your coins, there is a finite amount available, and it is given a (substantial) financial value even though there is nothing "backing it". Honestly, it's metal that's pulled out of the ground. It has some uses industrially, but really, what makes it so special above and beyond any other metal we pull out of the ground that also has industrial uses? Steel is much more "precious" than gold, we couldn't have anything we have today without it, yet it's worthless compared to any PM. To quote above, anyone who assigns an artificial value above and beyond basic usage to something should be by definition delusional. Yet here we are on a coin collecting board watching and talking about things that have a face value of $0.01 going for thousands, tens of thousands, or even millions of dollars. Why? It's only "real" value is $0.01. Something is worth whatever people are willing to pay for it, for whatever perceived reason, logical or not. And most times, it's illogical and backed by nothing concrete. Now, to the whole "drugs and hookers and tax avoidance thing". Yeah, so what? If you are a person of nefarious intentions, you're going to use whatever tool you can to facilitate those means. PM's, jewels, cold hard cash, and now Bitcoin are used for it. Bitcoin is a tool in that belt, sure. Anyone who denies it is living in a dream world, just as anyone who thinks only Bitcoin is used for that is also living in the same. I will argue that Bitcoin is actually MORE traceable than US cash for illegal activities. Back to my last post, EVERY transaction made is recorded in a publicly available ledger. You can literally follow your Satoshi (a Satoshi is the Bitcoin equivalent of a cent, in simple terms) from the moment you "spend" it, forever more as it travels (anyone familiar with the "where is George" dollar bill tacking effort?). Take these recent Ransomware attacks. The ransom was paid in Bitcoin, and you'd think hey, illegal usage, and they'll never catch them. Nope. The authorities know the Bitcoin addresses where the ransoms were paid to, and are watching them for any movement. So, the thieves have collected zero so far, and as soon as they try to move the money, it'll be followed and they will be caught when trying to cash out. Even if it's 20 years from now. Yeah, try to do that with Cash. For every 1 bad thing associated with Bitcoin, there are hundreds if not thousands of good things that aren't trumpeted. There's a small family shop out in Utah (Bees Brothers if you care to look it up) where the boys were doing a project for school and it turned into a love of beekeeping. They took that and turned it into a business where they make and sell honey-based products, and guess what for? Bitcoin. I've bought some of their honey caramels, they are wonderfully tasty. They also sell for normal US fiat, of course. Everyone has a right to be skeptical about Bitcoin, for sure. The book is still being written, and right now, no one knows how the final chapter will go. Not even the creators know, and I'm sure there are plenty of the original folks marveling at just how far its come. The way I prefer to look at Bitcoin is that it was the first step in testing the water for a migration to digital "currencies", and it was setting the stage for an entire new way of thinking about the concept of "money" and how it can evolve into the current digital age and beyond. Look at monetary units over time, how they evolved, how they started from nothing (literally) and grew to be used for commerce. This is just the next step in evolution. If you twist the perception lens around, you can draw parallels to current monetary methods and see how it COULD work out. Take a look at it from the angle of Bitcoin = gold, Litecoin, Ethereum, CoinX = silver, platinum, etc. Then all the other alts as all the other types of currencies each country is using. There would be Dashcoin, Dogecoin, CoinX/Y/Z instead of rubles, drachmas, yen, etc. The biggest thing here is adoption. Remember, Bitcoin is the oldest one, and it's less than 10 years old. 10 YEARS! It's got growing pains, many of them, for sure. But, it's coming to a point where it is reaching critical mass and it is now in the conversations of more people on a daily basis, those from all walks of life, not just Geeks and Nerds and coders in mommy' basement. Yeah, it could crash and burn, and we have to be cognizant of that. This got way too long, I'll cut it here for now.[/QUOTE]
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