Discussion in 'Bullion Investing' started by goldcollector, Mar 17, 2017.

  1. Prime Mover

    Prime Mover Active Member

    Well, hang on, he does have a point.

    Bitcoin (and any coin which is yo-yo-ing right now) is not price-stable enough to be a true currency right now.

    You're right, you can use Bitcoin many places to buy something, today, at a lot of retailers, including a cup of joe.

    He's right in that why would anyone want to sell something (or buy something) when it's fluctuating in price so rapidly, literally in some cases by the minute?

    You can peg a crypto to fiat, that's no problem even down to the minute. You can easily say this is $1.25 in fiat, which when you walked in the door and got on line was 0.002BTC. By the time you get to the counter, the fiat <-> BTC rate has changed so that while it's still $1.25 in fiat, it's now 0.003BTC. You buy it, then it drops to 0.001BTC because of the market fluctuation, and now the vendor has taken a loss.

    What makes currency work is stability, low and predictable inflation / deflation, which changes over the course of a year, not 6 hours.

    This is why right now Cryptos are their own worst enemy. They aren't stable enough to be used as everyday currency (yet), but the fluctuate too rapidly which makes them look shaky, unstable, and frequently equated to penny stocks with the volatility and movement. It's easy to see why there's unease about it, if you look at it that way.
    Garlicus likes this.
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  3. HawkeEye

    HawkeEye 1881-O VAMmer Supporter

    Well said and one of my main concerns and points. However, this is an issue all of us can just watch and have very little influence over. I wish the Bitcoin bulls well and will move on to other discussions.
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  4. Co1ns

    Co1ns Member

    I don't think it's that silly, it's a very common saying amongst successful traders (those with no positions are just noise).
  5. Co1ns

    Co1ns Member

    The vast majority of exchanges operate on a weighted average and all payment solutions have instant USD conversion implemented. This really is a non-issue. Most people don't pay for goods and services with bitcoin because they'd prefer to hold it for the capital gain. It is still very difficult to obtain, buying a coffee with it only to go through the hassle of topping up your BTC holdings is just a waste of time. That's probably my biggest criticism with bitcoin, it should be easier to buy and sell (with a credit card etc).

    Anyway, apologies for being a little arrogant/rude @Hawkeye, there was just a bit of that coming from your side too, plus misinformation. Worth noting I'm not a rabid bitcoin enthusiast, just a trader, there are some stunning trends atm, of the kind we rarely get in FX or stocks and it's easy money.*

    *Let me clarify, it's easy money if you know what you're doing. Trading on margin carries significant risk and losses can exceed your deposit. Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are extremely volatile products and leverage magnifies this risk. Though I am qualified to issue general financial advice regarding foreign exchange derivatives, I am unable to offer personal advice. Nothing herein should be interpreted as an invitation to buy or sell securities. :p
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
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  6. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    What do traders say about betting in either direction on a market where you have insufficient information?
    Santinidollar likes this.
  7. Co1ns

    Co1ns Member

    Tried to wind this up, but anyway, yeah ... that's my point. If you are admittedly uninformed and not confident enough to open a position, why would you be arguing with people who are well informed and profiting from informed decisions?

    Seems a little paradoxical.

    Meanwhile ... ETHBTC to new record highs in line with our analysis:


    Gold should break above the wedge soon, though lower and more sideways first seems most likely. Ready to buy the eventual breakout either way:

  8. Co1ns

    Co1ns Member

    Another record close on ETHBTC. Key 0.1 Bitcoin figure is history.

    Wow. Just wow. +23% on the day, 217% from the April lows 1174% year to date. If you had a bearish view on bitcoin, this was the way to play it.

    Last edited: May 30, 2017
  9. Michael K

    Michael K Well-Known Member

    Bitcoin dropped $400 in one day last week. (May 25-26 around there).
  10. Co1ns

    Co1ns Member

    Would vary between exchanges, but was actually $550 high to the low, and another $250 to the swing low two days later, for a total of $900 / 33%. Can't look at that move in isolation though, it's all relative: this was following an $1800 / 200%+ appreciatio, ie the move lower was a pretty standard 50% correction of the move higher.

    Bitcoin is definitely volatile, no arguments there, but you adapt your trading/investment strategy accordingly. We trade forex with 50 - 100:1 leverage when swing or trend trading, sometimes closer to 500 if we're scalping. Max available margin trading bitcoin at Bitfinex is 3:1 and we rarely use that, there's no need.

    Investing and trading bitcoin and other crypto isn't a walk in the park, but savvy investors and traders can do incredibly well, sell side and buy side. If you want safety, buy bonds.
  11. NorthKorea

    NorthKorea Dealer Member is a made up title...

    Why is crypto-currency speculation in the bullion section? Shouldn't this be in the general discussion section, similar to how any speculation about securities and options would be?
    Co1ns likes this.
  12. NorthKorea

    NorthKorea Dealer Member is a made up title...

    This is so far from the truth... There's a reason why fixed income fund managers are paid ridiculous salaries and bonuses: Chasing yield curves is far from easy.
  13. Co1ns

    Co1ns Member

    I just mean in the sense that you invest a given amount of your local currency and are guaranteed the return of it + coupon payments. A rated gov bonds are about as 'safe' as you get in investing, go to comparison for alpha / 'risk-free' rate of return.
  14. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    The younger you are, the more high-octane your investments should be. I don't know where bitcoin fits into this and even if it does.
    Co1ns likes this.
  15. HawkeEye

    HawkeEye 1881-O VAMmer Supporter

  16. Clawcoins

    Clawcoins Well-Known Member

    There's is high volatility in crypto.

    Just jumping in without watching it for a while can lead to quick losses. Then it depends what type of investor/speculator you are at that point. On that rushes to preserve cash or is in for the long haul, or has a loss stop on it.

    Of course the other problems are that the market websites are not exactly very mature and stable. During times of high volatility it seems they are down or running very slowly. that seems to be a sign. I have the a few accts that text me on any web issues. And those webissues seem to be related to volatility/high buy/sells.

    PMs do not have this wide, fast volatility for profit/loss. You can lose $500 in hours on one BitCoin. ==>

    IMG_0390.JPG IMG_0391.JPG IMG_0392.JPG
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  17. HawkeEye

    HawkeEye 1881-O VAMmer Supporter

    Exactly why I have steered way far away. I am old enough to see too many get rich opportunities not to be skeptical.
    Santinidollar likes this.
  18. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    And which side were you on yesterday?

    Ethereum had a flash crash — here's what happened


    While this chart doesn't report it, CNBC is reporting that Ethereum was trading on one exchange a low as ten cents.

    Adam White, a vice president at GDAX (one of the biggest Ethereum exchanges), made a public statement that the exchange worked exactly as designed, and that no trades would be unwound. Sweet! At least for the folks who got to buy at ten cents. For the ones who had stop-losses triggered or automatic short-covering, not so much.
  19. Clawcoins

    Clawcoins Well-Known Member

    rats .. I was too busy yesterday
    no wonder the website crashed .. high volume crashes the trading platforms.

    I had the cash sitting there too to BUY on fast downturns.
    making money at it on those quick flips requires a good trading platform, which doesn't exist yet.
  20. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    And if the platform did exist, presumably it would be less vulnerable to these -- attacks? incidents? -- because it would improve liquidity. It sounds like one large market sell order saturated the exchange's resources, making it impossible to find buyers fast enough.
    Santinidollar likes this.
  21. Clawcoins

    Clawcoins Well-Known Member

    get a lot of these

    or the website is generally not available at all.

    There are articles out there that talk about the instability of the trading platforms for crypto. So I picked the best one. Glad I didn't pick the worst one.
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