Anna's Demise

Confused why most think anna will be the series key when L.Adams currently is. Could somebody please explain this to me

 

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Well, I'm not sure I can, but I'll give it a try...

This suggests that the Anna Harrison coins will have final mintages well below the Louisa Adams coins. However, mintage alone doesn't necessarily make "the Key date". Surviving specimens and popularity are factors, too.

With everything else being equal, one would think that the significant reduction in mintage of the Anna Harrison coins relative to the Louisa Adams coins (Unc: -717; Proof: -1271) would make the Anna Harrison coins the new Key dates.

:loud:HOWEVER!!! The US Mint has decided to delay the Abigail Fillmore coin and continue selling the Anna Harrison coins indefinately!!! :headbang::headbang::headbang:

...so no one knows that the final mintage of the Anna Harrison coins will be.

:loud:Now here's something even MORE interesting...

US Title 31 only prohibits the sale of First Spouse coins after the entire program is over...around the year 2016. That means the Mint can continue to sell unsold coins after the Mint's one (1) year marketing period...just as the Presidential coins are continuing to be sold via the direct ship program. When they stop selling First Spouse coins through the Mint's online catalog, they simply distribute the rest through the Mint's Bullion Dealer program.

In other words, the mintages after the one (1) year US Mint sales period ***IS NOT*** the final mintages of these coins. The mint is likely minting the full complement of these coins (40,000 divided between Uncs and Proofs) and selling them through their auxillary channels...:loud:WITHOUT NOTIFYING THE PUBLIC!!! If they were a private company, the Federal Trade Commission would shut them down!!!

I hope this answers your question. :thumb:

PS...I've contacted the Mint on this...no comment! I posted comments to the various First Spouse Blogs, but they've been deleted without comment. I sent a letter to the Editor of Coin World...we'll see if they can get an answer for the First Spouse collectors.

 

Ohmagosh! Say it ain't so!

If this is true, we've been hoodwinked Yak.
I'm weeping many and bitter tears as I'm sure are you.
Meanwhile the mint closed their website for the weekend.
And dammit, it was otherwise such a lovely spring day.

 

Wow! closed the website on a weekend. amazing.

 

Hoodwinked...Bamboozled...Run Amuck!

That's the way I'm feeling, too. I invested quite a bit of $$ in this series to...

A. Collect the series
B. Invest in low mintages US Mint gold coins

The US Mint leads the collector to believe (either directly or through online blogs they support) that these coins are to be minted for 52 weeks only and the total units sold at the end of that period represent the final mintage figures for that design.

The US Mint owes it to the buying public to explicitly state the parameters under which this program is operated. I'll leave it to those trained in the Legal profession to opine if they wish, but to me this smells like ***FRAUD***.

It'll be interesting to see if Coin World looks into this and what they come up with.

 

I'm the lazy Spouse Collector who only reads threads if I happen to see them in the Recent Post column! I just read this whole thread and I can add three more cents while we wait for Abigail II.

1) IF the bottom falls out of the PM market to the tune of that 80's crash, it would probably increase the number of folks that could afford to start collecting the series (just in time for the "popular" ladies?). We all know what happens when collectors start something--there's more than a few that can't stop!

2) I LOVE that I'm not worried about all this money being tied up in a numismatic bet like a RED Copper collector would be! (Environmental concerns and all)

3) And finally, to those who bemoan the artistic quality of the coins, I only ask: How "beautiful" is the Unc. Jackie Robinson? (In fact, it might even be a step down from the ladies!)

Now let's stop worrying about those unsold hoards, what's the worst that can happen? Right! 40K! My hedge is the First Strike; try getting that at the end of the series!

 

PS- Let's not get too excited! Remember the 500 coin bump in sales of the unc. Van Buren in its last week?

 

The notion that "Let the Mint be the Mint...sometimes you win, sometimes you lose" isn't good enough. They need to hold themselves to the same high business standards as the Franklin Mint.

Why can't the Mint just come out and say that..."We're gonna mint the total amount authorized and sell in the remainder in the secondary market". A little truth in advertising goes a long way.

Instead, they lead us to believe the total mintage (Unc & Proof) for a given issue is determined by the final 52 week sales figures as issued by the Mint. That's less than 10,000 for the Anna Harrison coin...at least at the point when they were "advertised" to go off sale.

Just because the Mint is run by the Government...that's no excuse for incompetence. A good reason, but no excuse.

 

Very very interesting. I am still deciding whether to pickup Uncir. to go with my proofs. Yet, with the price of gold, I will extremely lucky to be able to keep up with a proof of each issue.

 

Yakpoo-
I don't mind holding the Mint to a higher standard! I'm just thinking about the "worst possible outcome" and trying to be "OK" with that, seeing how in the end it won't be up to us, no matter how right we are! My wife (even more suspicious than us) has asked me several times "what's going to happen when the Mint decides to make more than 40,000?" My defense, that "it's in the law," merely suggests to her that Congress could simply change the law!... I had to admit that that too is possible!

So what leads you to think the Mint is going to screw us near the end? Did I miss something or is it just "theoretically possible?"

 

I've been a fairly strong supporter of the First Spouse program from 2008 when I began collecting the series. Of course, that was based on the fact that each First Spouse design would be sold by the Mint for one year (52 weeks), only. At the end of that period, the dies would be defaced and any remaining coins destroyed. That certainly was the impression the Mint projects through their sponsored online Blogs and published "final" mintages.

Then things began to change. First, sales of the Jackson proof were ended three (3) weeks early, then the Van Buren coins were sold an extra week, and now the Anna Harrison coins are to stay on sale indefinately. I, like many other US Mint customers, make purchasing decisions based the program's "rules" as stated/implied by the Mint itself.

Title 31, subsection 5112(o), which outlines the parameters of the First Spouse program seemed clear...the First Spouse coin was to be "issued" during the same period as the corresponding Presidential dollar (four per year, except when there were more than one (1) spouse per president in a given year). It's clear now that the term "issued" means "minted"; not "sold".

If you take the "issued = sold" interpretation (which is the only interpretation that makes the Mint's current actions legal), the Mint can produce up to a total of 40,000 coins between Proof and Uncirculated grades and distribute them as they like until the end of the First Spouse program...early 2016. And to your point, I would suggest there's a HUGE difference between a mintage of 10,000 vs. 40,000.

So here's my beef...why don't they "Man-up" and clearly state the rules of their program up front, instead of trying to cheat their customers by creating the "impression" these coins are much rarer than they actually are. Why should US Mint customers have to consult an attorney just to figure out what the Mint can/can't do? FRAUD is the only word that comes to mind.

Director Moy has screwed up too many coin programs up on his watch and he has GOT to go!!! :loud:

 

Anecdotally there is no evidence of this. You can find a ton of Washington, Adams, etc coins where they initially sold out, for resale. Not so easy for subsequent coins where the issuance was a lot lower.

A good example are the 3 coins that have been released in the Liberty sub-series. i.e. Jefferson, Jackson, & Van Buren. Jefferson sold out, but Jackson and Van Buren are in the 7000s for the Proof version. Now at the dealers and ebay Jefferson is easy to find and are relatively inexpensive. Contrast that to the other two coins. They are hard to find and sell at a pretty stiff premium if you can find one. This would suggest the mint did not take the excess and dump them on the market through the dealer program. My guess is the excess are being melted down.

I'm not saying that legally it can't happen. The wording is ambiguous enough for it to go either way, but there is no evidence that it is happening. Strictly speaking the way it is worded, one could assume they have to keep the program running until 2 years after Bush Jr. has passed away. I would think that if the mint was dumping the excess coins on the dealers that by now the news would have leaked out. It doesn't make much sense as the mint always announces quantities bullion sales to dealers and there have not been any announcements for any of the First Spouse coins after they are withdrawn from the mint's store.

 

Yeah boy, this sure is exciting stuff.......

My personal hope is that when the Mint's website reappears, Moy and Anna will both be gone forever and Director YakPoo will be in charge. THEN we shall have reason and order my friends, and justice shall prevail. And no First Spouse shall live beyond her mandated three score less eight weeks.
No Zombie Spouses!
No Zombie Spouses!
No Zombie Spouses!
Sharpen your stakes. One good thrust through the heart! All together now!

 

LOL! Great response! ...and All hail Dir. Yakpoo!

 

I agree with you 100%...and I'm not saying they've sold coins on the secondary markets...yet. I'm just saying that there's nothing restricting them from doing so. Additionally, there's nothing that restricts unsold product to be sold at a later date or more pieces to be minted...as long as they don't mint more than a total of 40,000 pieces across all product lines.

They create the impression, through Mint sponsored web sites like http://www.firstspousecoins.us that the US Mint sales figures, at the end of the one (1) year US Mint sales period, is the final mintage.

I don't care what they decide to do as long as they come right out and tell us before we spend money. I think we have a right to know what we're buying. This is classic "bait & switch" sales tactics.

Btw, did you notice that they just took that website down in the last week...since I began complaining? ...interesting. :kewl:

 

Sure there is nothing to prevent it but I'm thinking it is unprecedented and there is no reason for the mint to do it. If they did do this, after declaring a coin "sold out" even before it had reached the issuance limit, it would hurt them for all future sales of coins.

In other words, I don't see what they would to have to gain by it and there is everything to lose in terms of the reputation of their proof and uncirculated coin sales.

 

I think the Mint will do whatever they need to do (within the limitations of the program) to meet requirements. Selling unsold First Spouse "bullion" coins through the Mint's Bullion Dealer Program is certainly an option. I'm not saying they WILL do that, but there's nothing that says they can't...and they're not saying they won't!

 

I dont think they will sell to the dealer program, they might hold onto them and sale it later though. once a the mint would announce they will sell coins that are many years old, i think the left over spouse coins will be in similar sale.

I think the buillion coins sold to dealers might be sold at certain price about melt, while spouse gold coins are sold at higher set price instead of spot price. i amjust speculating, about Mint's Bullion Dealer Program.

 

I just wish they would tell us what they plan to do so we can make an informed decision. For instance, they came up with the coin price chart...great!! Everyone knows when prices will go up or down...and make purchase decisions accordingly. They should have that kind of openness with all aspects of their coin programs.

Every non-soldout First Spouse coin has had a run up in sales at the end if it's issue...based on Collectors "believing" (based on all available information provided by the Mint) that there won't be any more sold. If the Mint later sells off a bunch more, that seems to violate an "implied contract" (imo). If that's not legally wrong, it's certainly ethically wrong.

Btw, the increased premium for the First Spouse coins is to cover production expenses...based on a 40,000 coin mintage (vs. mintages of other bullion coins which can be 1,000,000 or more). That's another reason it's in the Mint's best interest to produce more coins and sell them on the bullion market...to recoup production costs.

Honestly, I doubt the Mint goes out of their way to produce extra coins just to have them sit on the shelves. However, if they do a production run of, say...20,000 coins and only 10,000 are sold, I can see them selling the left over coins on the bullion market rather than melting them down. ...and that's OK, too, as long as they report an accurate mintage count.

Why does the Mint have so much trouble counting coins? Have you seen the constantly fluctuating mintage numbers on the 2008 fractional buffalo coins? This isn't rockets science...any kid watching Sesame Street can come up with a better coin count than the Mint.

 

I just got off the phone with a lady at the US Mint ordering facility. I asked her what the Mint does with First Spouse coins that are returned after they go off sale. She put me on hold for a bit, then came back and said the coins are "melted". I asked if that was true for coins that were minted, but never sold and she said they were melted, also.

I've never gotten accurate information from the US Mint before, but I'm hoping this is accurate...it's certainly what the Mint has led us to believe. I would feel much better about these "Final Mintage" figures if the Mint would clarify their policy on their website. Oh well...Anna Harrison coins sales march onward...

As of March 7th, 2010...

Unc: 3533 (+27) 690 more needed to catch Louisa Adams
Proof: 6239 (+56) 1215 more needed to catch Louisa Adams